Pro-lifers... (punishment, Earth, exodus, choice, abortion)

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Originally Posted by KingM

I think both sides of the debate can be faulted for not doing enough to reduce the number of abortions by making birth control readily available so that abortion is not simply used as birth control by the lazy, the uneducated, or the poor.

Both sides?

I've never heard a "pro-choice" person come out against birth control, and many pro-choice organizations are strong advocates of birth control as well... look at Planned Parenthood as a good example of this.

OTOH, the religious "pro-life" side tends to also be anti-birth control as well as anti-abortion, effectively trying to stop both abortion and the best alternative to it.

Originally Posted by KingM

I think that abortion should be kept legal but that morally it should be a last resort. Whatever you think of an embryo or fetus an abortion is still an act of violence against something helpless.

Animals raised for meat are effectively helpless. Should anything but veganism be considered "a last resort"?

[KingM]

Originally Posted by 9-10ths_Penguin

Both sides?
I've never heard a "pro-choice" person come out against birth control, and many pro-choice organizations are strong advocates of birth control as well... look at Planned Parenthood as a good example of this.

Sure, but plenty of pro-choice people act as though abortion is just one more form of birth control. Is it?

OTOH, the religious "pro-life" side tends to also be anti-birth control as well as anti-abortion, effectively trying to stop both abortion and the best alternative to it.

True.

Animals raised for meat are effectively helpless. Should anything but veganism be considered "a last resort"?

Oddly enough, I worked with someone who was both a vegan and pro-choice. I wasn't sure how this was a tenable position to hold. She wouldn't eat honey because of its cruelty to bees, but saw no problem in aborting a human fetus.

The thing is, we should have different standards for different forms of life. Few people feel guilty about swatting a fly. You drown unwanted kittens, however, and you'll probably find yourself in trouble. Similarly, we want to ban the hunting of whales not just because they are endangered (some species are not) but because we recognize them as higher life forms.

Along the same lines, I think there should be different standards for the morning after pill, for a first trimester abortion, or for a late term abortion. I think we should have different standards for the consumption of fish, for chickens, or for pork. Again, our moral responsibility is greater for those things more like us, more capable of thought, and more capable of feeling pain.

I know this position isn't 100% consistent, but I find this an extraordinarly complex subject that I can't reduce to the easy dichotomy of murder vs. enslavement of women, that many people make it.

[cardero]

Originally Posted by KingM

Whatever you think of an embryo or fetus an abortion is still an act of violence against something helpless.

Yes, wait until they are old enough to brandish a weapon.

[Mister Emu]

OTOH, the religious "pro-life" side tends to also be anti-birth control as well as anti-abortion, effectively trying to stop both abortion and the best alternative to it.

As far as I know, Catholics are the only ones who don't go for artificial birth control...

[Tigress]

Originally Posted by KingM

I think both sides of the debate can be faulted for not doing enough to reduce the number of abortions by making birth control readily available so that abortion is not simply used as birth control by the lazy, the uneducated, or the poor.

I think that abortion should be kept legal but that morally it should be a last resort. Whatever you think of an embryo or fetus an abortion is still an act of violence against something helpless.

I agree, KingM. Both sides, pro-life and pro-choice, need to step up and do more to reduce the number of abortions. For the pro-choice, this means not only making sure that more women have access to birth control, but also to accurate information regarding its use, as well as to their bodies in general, and other care and support, should they find themselves pregnant. Crisis pregnancy centres are great for pro-life and pro-choice alike. For pro-lifers, especially those against birth control, helping to establish more places of support like a CPC should high on the 'to-do' list, for those able. I firmly believe that with more information made available to women everywhere, abortion rates will go down, as will the number of unwanted pregnancies, and sexually transmitted diseases.

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Originally Posted by Mister Emu

As far as I know, Catholics are the only ones who don't go for artificial birth control...

Many non-Catholic Christian groups actively campaign for things like abstinence-only education and are against programs that make condoms available to teenagers.

Most abortions happen in situations outside the confines of marriage, so in terms of the abortion debate, being against birth control for teenagers and other unmarried people (as part of a larger campaign against sex outside marriage) is effectively almost the same as being against birth control generally.

[PureX]

Originally Posted by KingM

And it's also why this is such an emotionally charged issue. Both sides tend to get hysterical and frame the discourse in apocalyptic terms.

Actually, it seems to me that only one side does this.

[PureX]

Originally Posted by KingM

I think both sides of the debate can be faulted for not doing enough to reduce the number of abortions by making birth control readily available so that abortion is not simply used as birth control by the lazy, the uneducated, or the poor.

I think that abortion should be kept legal but that morally it should be a last resort. Whatever you think of an embryo or fetus an abortion is still an act of violence against something helpless.

Now you're on the right track. Pro-choice is not pro-abortion. No one is pro-abortion. And that's where the two sides can meet and agree. And that's where the work of ending abortion should begin - not with prohibitive laws, but with ALTERNATIVE SOLUTIONS.

[w00t]

Abortion is often the lesser of two evils. A woman should always have the right to terminate a pregnancy at least up until 12 weeks gestation imo.