Baha'i Faith questions (ritual, reject, paradise, mystic, contradiction)

[ayani]

several months ago i asked some questions in the Baha'i forum that were kind of leaning into debate... i still have some questions about the Faith i'd like to address.

is the Baha'i Faith universalist or triumphalist?

triumphalism : the attitude or belief that a particular doctrine, especially a religion or political theory, is superior to all others

universalism : one universalist faith describes their attitude this way : "people of all faiths can be saved spiritually at the end of life if they have followed their beliefs sincerely and loved God and their neighbors."

a common sentiment expressed by Baha'is is that of the "unity of religions" or that "religion is one". at the same time, there is the idea of "progressive revelation", that all world faiths are like new chapters in a book, and that the Baha'i Faith is the most appropriate religion for "this age".

to quote from a previous thread...

Originally Posted by Arthra

God can decree anything [in this case a person chosing a religion besides the Baha'i Faith] but I think because He is merciful He has allowed choice to people so they can mature spiritually... Human growth and developement is a long process.

Originally Posted by ayani

so one can argue based upon this that God continues to allow people to find His message through other faiths, for example Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam... and people continue to use these faiths' teachings to work for peace and unity in the world, two very central Baha'i goals. so is the Baha'i faith ultimately triumphalistic, and why, if all religions are truly One and Truth continues to speak through them? are the eternal truths of compassion, rememberance, and unity not still flowing through the other world faiths? and if God allows choice in His mercy, the faiths He would allow His children to choose from must in some way lead to Him, correct? i mean no disrespect for the Baha'i Faith, but there does seem to be a contradiction between the Baha'i claim of the unity of world religions, the apparent reality of God's not leading all people to become Baha'i, and the fact that world faiths continue to "work" with regards to the Baha'i goals of unity, justice, and peace.

your thoughts?

[Popeyesays]

The New Message is somewhat triumphal, after all it says that this is the manifestation of God best suited for the day.

At the same time it is universalist because all that went before was also the Manifestation of God for its day. Also triumphalism has to be throttled back somewhat when you KNOW that there will come the day when a New Manifestation of God comes to pass and the people of that age will have to make the same tough choices we did.

Regards,

Scott

[ayani]

hmm... but ultimately how can a faith be both triumphalist and universalist?

i've seen many Baha'i posters with symbols of world faiths, indicating the continued validity of these faiths. the idea that "world religions are one" would seem to also support this idea.

how can a faith, for example Buddhism, be both One with the Baha'i Faith, from the same eternal source, a continued source of inspiration for millions (including the realization of Baha'i ideals such as equality and unity), and ultimately inferior to the Baha'i Faith?

i remember one kind of wry description of the Faith going like this... "all religions are equal....the Baha'i Faith is just a little more equal than all the others".

does this ring true at all?

[Booko]

Originally Posted by ayani

hmm... but ultimately how can a faith be both triumphalist and universalist?

How can God be both immanent and transcendent?

More directly, any "triumph" to be had is quite temporary. The next Manifestation and all bets are off.

Also, whatever "triumph" there may be is clearly and irrefutably built on the religions that have come before.

how can a faith, for example Buddhism, be both One with the Baha'i Faith, from the same eternal source, a continued source of inspiration for millions (including the realization of Baha'i ideals such as equality and unity), and ultimately inferior to the Baha'i Faith?

Buddhism is not One with the Baha'i Faith. They are two distinct faiths, with distinct Founders and while the general purpose of religion is common to both, the Founders had specific and distinct purposes necessary for the advancement of humanity.

Also, I would not cast another religion in terms of "inferior." The most one can make of that is that an older religion is more likely to have infusions of manmade ideas than a younger one, but you know, in our time we'll get our infusions as well, so it doesn't pay to get all uppity about it.

i remember one kind of wry description of the Faith going like this... "all religions are equal....the Baha'i Faith is just a little more equal than all the others".

does this ring true at all?

Not to me it doesn't. The Baha'i Faith is younger, not "more equal." All the other religions have had their spiritual Springtime as well, and we too shall enter our summer, autumn, and regrettably, spiritual Winter. That is the implication of progressive revelation that it is unwise for us to forget.

If my reading of the Tablet of the Holy Mariner is remotely accurate, I don't see why when the next Manifestation arrives She won't be rejected initially just as has always happened in the past.

Well, here is a short passage, though not in the fullest context, but see what you make of it:

She then descended with such an adorning as to illumine the heavens and all that is therein;

She bestirred herself and perfumed all things in the Land of Holiness and Grandeur.

When she reached that plane she rose to her full height in the mid-most heart of creation

and sought to inhale their fragrance at a time that knoweth neither beginning nor end.

She found not in them that which she did desire, and this, verily, is but one of His wondrous tales!

She then cried aloud, wailed and repaired to her own station within her most lofty Mansion.

And then gave utterance to one Mystic Word, whispered privily by her honeyed Tongue,

And raised the Call amidst the Celestial Concourse and the Immortal Maids of Heaven:

"By the Lord! I found not from these idle claimants the Breeze of Faithfulness!

By the Lord! The Youth hath remained lone and forlorn in the land of exile in the hands of the ungodly!"

She then uttered within herself such a cry that the Celestial Concourse did shriek and tremble,

And she fell upon the dust and gave up the Spirit. It seemeth she was called and hearkened unto Him that summoned her into the Realm on High.

Glorified be He that created her out of the Essence of Love in the midmost heart of His exalted Paradise!

(Compilations, Baha'i Scriptures, p. 253)

[Popeyesays]

Actually, Booko, Nyarlathotep is more likely a spiritual master than Cthulhu. Cthulhu lays dreaming and Nyarlathotep runs around and does evil things for amusement.

Regards,

Scott

[Booko]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Actually, Booko, Nyarlathotep is more likely a spiritual master than Cthulhu. Cthulhu lays dreaming and Nyarlathotep runs around and does evil things for amusement.

Off topic

But you reminded me, the purpose of the sig line seems to have passed into history. Time for a new one.

[UnityNow101]

This is one of the problems that I seen with the Bahai establishment. Overall, the Bahai Faith is a great religion with some of the nicest people. I just don't believe that you can uphold both the unity of all religions and their teachings, but at the same time call the Bahai Faith and the UHJ the supreme authority. If all religions teach basically the same thing, what is wrong with people that are still within the Islamic Faith or Christian Faith, among others? Do they have to accept Baha'u'llah upon learning about him? Or can they remain within their respective faith and still be within truth and reason? The Bahai Faith is supposed to uphold the spirit of unity among all, yet if you question them concerning some religions or the faiths stances on some things, be prepared to be looked down upon by some members. Not all, but some. The establishment has been a hindrance to true unity among people in my opinion. But that is true of all religious establishments. It just seems weird in a religion that claims to be the unifier of all.

[arthra]

There is only one religion of God means in my view that God has revealed Himself through many Manifestations in the course of the human history ... Baha'is turn to what they consider to be the latest Manifestation which today is Baha'u'llah and recognize the previous Manifestations that have founded the major world religions such as Abraham, Zoroaster, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah.

We accept that Buddha and Krishna were also Manifestations. But we are unsure how accurately Their teachings were recorded and this is also true we believe for Zoroaster. We are unsure whether their teachings can be authenticated...at the same time though we recognize Them as Manifestations.

There have also been Manifestations back before recorded history that we believe have been around but we because of the passage of time we do not know who They are.

The concept of Progressive Revelation is in my view that God progressively reveals Himself as man has need and this concept you can find in the Bible and the Qur'an and we believe in the Writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah. It is an ongoing process...

Universalism and triumphalism are characteristics found in most revealed religions in my opinion. But you would have to study our Writings and see for yourself I think how they are used in their proper context..

- Art