Supreme Being? Why? (Jesus, priest, Earth, evolve, experience)

[paradigmatic]

All right, I'll try this one more.

OK. so you say church killed galileo and he had the proof of his theory. But can you prove what you said? Because I've never heard or read anywhere that the church killed him nor he had the proof of his theory.

Believing is more logical than feeling?

Most knowlegable and wisest people? -- ok, i'll back down on this one since you added Socrates and Plato on top of Jesus.

"How could not beliving in god be older than beliving in god? Thats not very logical to me." - are you kidding me? Read what you wrote again and again until you understand what you wrote.

[xander-]

Unfortunatly i don't have any other proof but a history book i read when i was in 8th grade in school.
Listen, because this is getting very stupid to listen to. If there was no belif, if god wasen't inveted, how can you discuss that there ISN'T a god? You try and read this again, maybe you'll get it.
When i said knowledgable and wisest people i said jesus beacuse i like what he said, though i don't belive that he cured blindness and so on.
As i said about the "feeling about religion..." thing, i chose the wrong word, sorry, my bad, but english isn't my first tounge.

-Xander

[kreeden]

Originally Posted by xander-

To be honest i dont understand people who belive in god so firmly that they put aside reason and logic. Platos, one of the best philosophers of all time, belived that people dont belive what they dont want.

So , Platos would say that people want a God ? Do they need another reason ?

[cfer]

Originally Posted by xander-

Galileo did back out but he did have the scientific proof. The problem was that the church didn't want him to tell people, because it would make them less belivable. In secret he continued to do his research, and when the church found out, they killed him.

I believe what really happened was that the Catholic Church labeled Galileo a heretic and had him placed under house arrest, where he died years later. The main thing the Catholic Church did was to deny Galileo the ability to publish his book "Discourses" and forbade him to hold his COPERNICAN views of heliocentricity.

One of Galileo's biggest supporters was Pope Urban VIII, who invited Galileo to have papal audiences six different times AFTER they had a review of the COPERNICAN ideas of heliocentricity.

(The Catholic Church in 1992 stated that the theological advisers had made errors in the heliocentricity case and finally closed the case of Galieleo.)

(all the information can be found here: http://www-gap.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~his...s/Galileo.html )

I find it surprising that you've mentioned da Vinci, Galileo, and Newton. All were quite religious and/or spiritual, even when they were being persecuted by the Church. You can even look at more recent scientists, also. Scientists like Einstein and Oppenheimer.

The idea is, it's possible to believe both science and religion (spirituality). The book "Can A Smart Person Believe In God" by Michael Guillen does a really good job of explaining how. It IS possible for a person to be both logical and spirtual. The two are not and should not be mutually exclusive.

[Hope]

Originally Posted by cfer

It IS possible for a person to be both logical and spirtual. The two are not and should not be mutually exclusive.

Amen and amen and amen.....

Thanks, cfer.

[xander-]

Thanks cfer, for proving a point to me. I actully trully understand what you are saying. I got a new perspective and ill try and find "Can a smart person belive in god". So thanks.
Da Vinci, Newton, Galileo and Einstien WERE spiritual people, but they were still geniuses. That was really just my point. And i apoligize to everyone on this board for making a false statement about Galileo. I should have researched it now insteed of trying to recall a book i read in 8th grade.
But as you also say, the church labeled Galileo as a heretic, becuase he said something opposite of what the bible said. Is that fair?

-Xander

[cfer]

Originally Posted by xander-

But as you also say, the church labeled Galileo as a heretic, becuase he said something opposite of what the bible said. Is that fair?

No, that is not fair. I don't believe anyone said it was. But you have to remember, we're only human. Unfortunately, at that time, the Church was closed off to any kind of dissenting viewpoints whatsoever. It didn't matter to them that there was proof of heliocentricity; they just weren't open to any logical proof, which was available. It just went against everything they believed at the time, and they weren't willing to listen to the logic of it all. Thankfully we've made some progress in that area and now the Church can listen to and even accept scientific advancements. They don't necessarily embrace them, but they are more willing to listen and see the reasonings, which is a start. Maybe in another 350 years they can embrace science wholeheartedly. I guess what I'm trying to say in all my rambling is this; condemning the Church now for something that happened ages ago is like yelling at your kid on his/her graduation day for spilling milk when they were 3. (Yeah, that analogy is kind of out there. Sorry...)

The REALLY interesting thing is that the Church didn't go so far as to say that they were wrong to convict Galileo of heresy. Even with proof in hand today, they still aren't admitting any wrongdoing.

And Xander, as a mathematician (in training), all those people that you mentioned are some of my heroes, too. I think it's awesome that you are keeping an open mind on all of this, and are willing to admit that you hadn't researched it all. Thanks for being honest.

Respectfully,
Chris

[xander-]

Thats true. The chruch is more open about science, but they still resent it. The church is the biggest movement against scientific research. And what i belive the reason is, is because if science goes forward and answears more questions that church answears by "faith", then they will lose more credability. And of course they are afraid of that because they will lose alot of firm belivers. But thats just my point. I could be wrong, and there could be a god, but, who knows?

-Xander