Is baptism for the dead more objectionable than infant baptism? (salvation, grace)

[fantôme profane]

Originally Posted by Muffled

Infant baptism isn't much more than that to the child unless you have a Pagan idea that the child is magically changed into a Christian.

Do you actually know any Pagans who believe this?

[Ozzie]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

I've been thinking that it might be interesting to compare the LDS practice of performing proxy baptisms on behalf of one's deceased ancestors with the Catholic practice of infant baptism. The most commonly raised argument I've heard against baptisms for the dead is that this practice is done without the consent of the person for whom the ordinance is being performed, and instead at the request of the person's family members. From my perspective, infant baptisms are performed without the consent of the person being baptized, and at the request of the infant's family members. So why do so many people find the LDS practice so objectionable and just dismiss the Catholic practice as something that may be done, but doesn't really count for anything if the person doesn't choose to practice Catholicism as an adult?

The LDS practice seems to miss the boat whilst the Catholic one gets in early. Both resemble recruitment IMO. Both are completely acceptable to the oblivious subject.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Ozzie

The LDS practice seems to miss the boat whilst the Catholic one gets in early. Both resemble recruitment IMO. Both are completely acceptable to the oblivious subject.

Would you mind clarifying these statements? I'm not sure I'm understanding you correctly. I'm not sure what you believe in terms of the soul/spirit when a person dies. Are you saying that the LDS practice of proxy baptism "misses the boat" because the spirit ceases to exist as a cognizant entity after death? And are you saying that the Catholic practice of infant baptism assures the individual salvation?

Also, how do you see either of them as recruitment? In other words, what do you believe baptism accomplishes in the first place?

Finally, you lost me entirely on your last statement. How could something be acceptable to someone who is oblivious to it having happened?

[namguy]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

I've been thinking that it might be interesting to compare the LDS practice of performing proxy baptisms on behalf of one's deceased ancestors with the Catholic practice of infant baptism. The most commonly raised argument I've heard against baptisms for the dead is that this practice is done without the consent of the person for whom the ordinance is being performed, and instead at the request of the person's family members. From my perspective, infant baptisms are performed without the consent of the person being baptized, and at the request of the infant's family members. So why do so many people find the LDS practice so objectionable and just dismiss the Catholic practice as something that may be done, but doesn't really count for anything if the person doesn't choose to practice Catholicism as an adult?

Baptism is an outward, public showing that they have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. Baptizm of babies does nothing but get them wet.

[Booko]

Originally Posted by namguy

Baptism is an outward, public showing that they have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour. Baptizm of babies does nothing but get them wet.

OK...what about baptism for the dead? Would you be offended if someone in LDS did a proxy baptism for some ancestor of yours?

[Muffled]

Originally Posted by fantôme profane

Do you actually know any Pagans who believe this?

I have avoided talking to Pagans about their faith because they are very sensitive and offend easily. Do you know any Pagans who believe in magic?

[Muffled]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

I always find these interpretations so amusing. Is that how you really think we believe it works?

I don't believe it works. Actually I was only speculating. How do you think it works?

[jonny]

Originally Posted by Muffled

I have avoided talking to Pagans about their faith because they are very sensitive and offend easily. Do you know any Pagans who believe in magic?

Hmm. Maybe you should try rewording the way you ask them your questions. I've found Pagans to be pretty open and willing to answer serious questions. I've always felt that the way you ask a question is as important as what you ask.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Muffled

I don't believe it works.

I know you don't. I wasn't asking you how you believe it works, but but what you think we believe. Your statement, ("I suppose you could hope that some soul hasn't gone to heaven and just happens to be hanging around an LDS church when the baptism takes place and would be willing to make the decision that makes baptism efficacious but I see the odds against it as very high.") implies that that's what you think we believe is going to happen.

How do you think it works?

We believe that there is a time between death and the resurrection when the spirit continues to exist as a cognizant entity. Billions of individuals have lived and died without ever having the opportunity to obey Christ's commandment to "believe and be baptized." Since a spirit has no flesh and bones, it can clearly not be baptized. It does, however, have the capacity to gain knowledge, grow spiritually and have faith in Jesus Christ. Since Jesus specifically said that men must both believe and be baptized in order to be saved, we perform proxy baptisms for those who have died without receiving this ordinance during their mortality. If, after death but prior to the resurrection, they are converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ, they will have fulfilled one of the two requirements He set forth (i.e. belief). The proxy baptism performed on their behalf by someone who is still living guarantees that the other requirement will also be taken care of. If a deceased person wishes to take advantage of the baptism performed for him by someone here on earth, it will have the same effect as it he had been baptized himself. If he chooses not to accept it, it will have no effect whatsoever.