Sinners in the hands of an angry God (moral, gospel)

[doppelgänger]

Originally Posted by Buttercup

Is rather simple really.

It's amazingly simple. It's just listening to others, asking questions about who they think they are and what they value, learning something from them and perhaps finding that spark you find so beautiful in the Bible or whatever you are pinning your hopes to in others.

The alternative is the glaring, blaring, repugnant message: "I don't know who you are. I don't understand what your beliefs and experiences mean to you. And I don't care in the least to find out. All I know is you don't chant my favorite chants and you're going to suffer for all eternity because of it."

You may not say the fist three sentences, but they are implied.

[Buttercup]

Originally Posted by Victor

I wouldn't, but I also wouldn't let that stop me either. As if that is what God really meant or weren't any other answers.

Maybe you don't understand that for many, once they hear the story of hell it's enough to turn them off for good. You probably grew up in Catholicism...indoctrinated while you were very young. You are comfortable with the concept.

Well, I guess we grew up with different concepts and views of it. It makes perfect sense to me that a God can love unconditionally while having a conditional relationship.

The Catholic hell is much more pleasant....we've had this conversation before, Victor. Unfortunately, America has this obsessive crush on the fire and brimstone approach.

[Sonic247]

All you have to do to know that there is judgement coming is to honestly look at the world and see all the terrible things that people do, or to honestly look at you're own actions. If someone is saying there is no hell then there must not be any sin either, because justice demands a punishment for sin, but who can honestly look at the world and say this?

[doppelgänger]

Spinoza had a good handle on the basic problem. From his Ethics:

[E4P37]

PROP. 37. The good which every man, who follows after virture, desires for himself he will also desire for other men, and so much the more, in proportion as he has a greater knowledge of God.

In his two proofs for this proposition, Spinoza offers the following:

[i]n proportion as the mind's essence involves a greater knowledge of God, so also will be greater the desire of the follower of virtue, that other men should possess that which he seeks as good for himself.

The good, which a man desires for himself and loves, he will love more constantly, if he sees that others love it also; he will therefore endeavour that others should love it also; and as the good in question is common to all, and therefore all can rejoice therein, he will endeavour, for the same reason, to bring about that all should rejoice therein, and this he will do the more, in proportion as his own enjoyment of the good is greater.

But Spinoza offers us an important caution in his notes to this proposition:

He who, guided by emotion only, endeavours to cause others to love what he loves himself, and to make the rest of the world live according to his own fancy, acts solely by impulse, and is, therefore, hateful, especially, to those who take delight in something different, and accordingly study and, by similar impulse, endeavour, to make men live in accordance with what pleases themselves.

The danger of a zealous, emotional fervor for what I know to be the Truth is that its rejection by others might be taken by me as a rejection of me. Thus, the evangelical impulse borne out of love becomes a vehicle of hatred.

There is an inherent violence in not genuinely listening to the stories of others' journeys and assuming that I have a nugget of Truth that they don't because they may choose to express it with different symbols or ideas than the ones I prefer.

[doppelgänger]

Originally Posted by Sonic247

All you have to do to know that there is judgement coming is to honestly look at the world and see all the terrible things that people do, or to honestly look at you're own actions. If someone is saying there is no hell then there must not be any sin either, because justice demands a punishment for sin, but who can honestly look at the world and say this?

I see a world full of pain, fear, anger, hatred, jealousy and violence too. It doesn't make me long for eternal torture for those struggling. Just the opposite, it makes me wish for mercy and rest for them from their struggles and fears. They are no less human and no less "good" or more "evil" than I. It is better for me to understand than to condemn.

[Buttercup]

Originally Posted by doppelgänger

But Spinoza offers us an important caution in his notes to this proposition:

He who, guided by emotion only, endeavours to cause others to love what he loves himself, and to make the rest of the world live according to his own fancy, acts solely by impulse, and is, therefore, hateful, especially, to those who take delight in something different, and accordingly study and, by similar impulse, endeavour, to make men live in accordance with what pleases themselves.

The danger of a zealous, emotional fervor for what I know to be the Truth is that its rejection by others might be taken by me as a rejection of me. Thus, the evangelical impulse borne out of love becomes a vehicle of hatred.

There is an inherent violence in not genuinely listening to the stories of others' journeys and assuming that I have a nugget of Truth that they don't because they may choose to express it with different symbols or ideas than the ones I prefer.

Very true, Brendan. It's been awhile since I've read Spinoza but I think your two paragraphs more graphically convey the conflict at hand than Spinoza's....now don't get a big head over it!

I remember a pastor saying years ago (paraphrased)..."Don't ever tell people they're going to hell....simply bowl them over with the love of Christ." "You'll be much more successful teaching men about God and getting them to listen."

[UnTheist]

The question is: Who is doing more of the inhuman terrors in the world? Religious folk, or non-believers?

[Sonic247]

Originally Posted by Buttercup

I remember a pastor saying years ago (paraphrased)..."Don't ever tell people they're going to hell....simply bowl them over with the love of Christ." "You'll be much more successful teaching men about God and getting them to listen."

That's not the approach Jesus used, like I said people don't mind hearing about God, as long as it doesn't effect their personal lives.