Sinners in the hands of an angry God (moral, gospel)

[sojourner]

Originally Posted by Hope

That was exactly my point. But what led to that unwillingness? Pride.



I'd love to find out the writers' intentions! Please enlighten me. And tell me how, thousands of years later, you can actually claim to know their intentions. I would seriously love to find out. I'm all for that. Waitin' on you.



Actually, there's not much difference. You're splitting hairs here. I don't at all take the "God said it, I believe it, that settles it" approach. I question things a lot. But so far nothing has shaken my faith. The more I find out, the more I'm convinced of what I believe.



No, actually, it's not my "working definition." It's common sense. Your wishes are subjective. And therefore, they definitely come into play when "reading into something." Whether you realize it or not.



According to your logic, perhaps we should question the veracity of every ancient document in existence that we rely on as sources of factual history. Why limit such reasoning only to the Bible? At some point you've simply got to ask yourself how far you're willing to go to see something in a text that simply isn't there.

As I said before, the burden of proof is on your end, not mine.



I believe the objectivity and subjectivity of one's approach is very much at issue. How can it not be??? Look at what you just said---"The process of reading into the scripture what you think is there, and reading out of it what is really there is what is at issue." By its common sense meaning, "reading into" something requires subjectivity. Duh. Your logic makes no sense to me.



The Scriptures definitely stress that God is love. No question. And they stress His love and mercy quite a bit. But you are doing the very thing you accuse me of: picking and choosing things out of context. You're the one projecting, not me. I look at the whole of Scripture, and see God's wrath and justice alongside His love---not in opposition to it. You are looking through blinders, saying, well, I believe those bits about God's love, but those bits about His wrath must be untrue. Why then believe the bits about His love are true? If you can so easily dismiss the parts about His wrath you should just as easily be able to dismiss the parts about His love, if you are truly being objective. The only reason you can't, is not really because of scholarship, but because of your subjective emotional response.




Did I ever use my reasoning as "because the Bible says so"? If I did, please point it out, because I don't recall doing so.

Here's the deal:
We can give a surface glance at all kinds of things and come up with what we assume is the truth about them -- including the Bible. But that surface glance is seldom "enough."

For example, I once knew a woman who was a retired army nurse. On the surface she was mean, crusty, opinionated, surly. Looking at only her demeanor, I could have easily written her off as a mean, crusty, opinionated and surly person who was not worth my time. But if you looked underneath the hard exterior, there was an extrememly warm, caring, sensitive, compassionate person who was a real gem. Had I not bothered to exegete what was really there, under the surface, I never would have really known her.

Another example: have you ever seen a diamond-in-the-rough? They don't even look like diamonds. You have to know what you're looking for. Exegeting the Bible is much the same. What you determine to be a "clear" concept may not be so clear, when you begin to dig away the cultural and thelogoical clutter we heap onto the scriptures.

My emotional response is to not believe what I'm hearing the Bible say about a loving God. so I look deeper for the truth. Only if you really look beyond the nasty brick exterior into the real innards do you see luxury loft condominiums instead of crumbling, old warehouses.

[joeboonda]

No deal!

[sojourner]

Originally Posted by joeboonda

Again, that is not at all what the Bible says. It says:

Romans 5:10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

How does the above verse say we are reconciled to God? By the death of his Son.

Ephesians 2:16
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

How does this verse say we are reconciled to God? By the cross. (i.e. Jesus' death on the cross)

Colossians 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself

How did He make peace and reconcile all things to Himself? Through the blood of His cross.

Colossians 1:21
And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

How has Jesus reconciled us? In the body of his flesh through death.

Hebrews 2:14
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

How did Jesus destroy him that had the power of death? Through death.

Hebrews 9:15
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

By what means did Jesus redeem us so we might (if we believe in Him) receive the promise of eternal inheritance? By means of death.

1 Peter 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

According to this, how does Christ bring us to God? He suffered once for sins being put to death.

Philippians 2:8
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Why was Christ exalted? For His incarnation or His obedience to death on the cross?

Romans 5:6
For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

What did Christ do for us? He died for the ungodly.

It makes no sense to talk of a God who effects salvation through death -- for God is not a God of destruction and death, but a God of creation and life. To counter your argument, I offer up this:

In the beginning there was the divine word and wisdom. The divine word and wisdom was there with God, and it was what God was. Everything came to be by means of it; nothing that exists came to be without its agency. In it was life, and this life was the light of humanity. Genuine light -- the kind that provides light for everyone -- was coming into the world. The divine word and wisdom became human and made itself at home among us.

John says that the divine word and wisdom that creates and brings life became human and made itself at home among us. What could be more incarnational, more a description of reconciliation than that?

Of course there was a theological uproar made of the crucifixion. What else were the disciples to make of it? Somehow, they had to see it as a beginning, not an end. So they attached all this meaning to it. That's not a bad thing, but we tend to overshadow the whole significance of the very incarnation of God -- Emmanuel -- God with us -- with the cross. The cross does not supplant the Incarnation, but caps it.

[sojourner]

Originally Posted by joeboonda

No deal!

So...the Bible just "is what I assume it to be?" We're not going to dive into it and find what's underneath a most superficial reading of it? The real meat of the nut does not lie under a shell? The edible part of the crab does not lie beneath a crusty exoskeleton?

Maybe, just maybe the Bible is a living, three-dimensional thing, rather than a two-dimensional museum piece.

[sojourner]

The Bible is clear in every way to all who would study it with a God-seeking heart and you have ignored ALL the teaching of the wrath of God and the judgement to come and All the warnings given about eternal punishment of the wicked.

Quite to the contrary: I've given the matter of God's wrath careful consideration. I find that Christ completely mitigates that wrath.

According to this Timothy has KNOWN the holy scriptures FROM A CHILD, which make us WISE unto SALVATION through FAITH in Christ. FROM A CHILD he KNEW them. This says ALL SCRIPTURE is PROFITABLE, we can know and understand it; for doctrine, reproof, correction, and INSTRUCTION in righteousness. That we may be COMPLETE and COMPLETELY FURNISHED for all God would have us do. If the Bible were not clear a child could not know it and become saved. But the Bible is clear to those who take the time to read it.

What scripture is "all scripture?" Surely not the New Testament, for when Timothy was written, there was no New Testament.

If a young child can read and understand, why cannot young children be baptized? Why must they wait until they're teenagers and "can understand what they're doing?"

"Who take the time to read it." You mean, exegeting, or just comapring passages?

[sojourner]

The entire New Testament is overshadowed by the certainty of a coming day of universal judgment, and by the problem thence arising; how may we sinners get right with God while there is yet time?

The entire New Testament is overshadowed? I think God's wrath is overshadowed by the Good News. Who are the sinners? What does it mean to "get right with God?" I thought Jesus made us "right" with God... How much time do we have? He's saying that God doesn't search for us until God finds us? He's saying that an infinite God has a limitation to patience?

Who is this Packer clown?

[sojourner]

There are few things stressed more strongly in the Bible than the reality of God's work as Judge.

One of them is the unconditional and overwhelming love that God has for us. Another is God's unending propensity to save us, even when we don't deserve it.

[sojourner]

Originally Posted by joeboonda

Apologetics Press :: Alleged Discrepancies

Love is not Jealous, So Why is God?

by Eric Lyons, M.Min.

The argument goes something like this: (1) 1 John 4:8 indicates that “God is love;” (2) 1 Corinthians 13:4 says that “love is not jealous” (NAS); and yet (3) Exodus 20:5, along with several other passages, reveals that God is “a jealous God.” “How,” the skeptic asks, “can God be jealous when several verses say God is love and 1 Cor. says love is not jealous?” (McKinsey, 1992). Simply put, if love is not jealous, and God is love, then God logically cannot be called jealous. Or conversely, if love is not jealous, and God is jealous, then God cannot be considered loving. Right? How can these verses be anything but contradictory?
The term “jealousy” most often carries a negative connotation in twenty-first-century America. We pity the man who is jealous of his coworker’s success. We frown upon families who react to a neighbor’s newly found fortune by becoming overcome with jealously. And we are perturbed to hear of a jealous husband who distrusts his wife, and questions every possible wrong action that she might make, even going so far as demanding that she never leave the house without him. Add to these feelings about jealousy what various New Testament passages have to say on the subject, and one can understand why some might sincerely question why God is described at times as “jealous.” The apostle Paul admonished the Christians in Rome to “behave properly,” and put off “strife and jealousy” (Romans 13:13, NAS). To the church at Corinth, Paul expressed concern that when he came to their city he might find them involved in such sinful things as gossip, strife, and jealousy (2 Corinthians 12:20). And, as noted above, he explicitly told them that “love is not jealous” (1 Corinthians 13:4). James also wrote about the sinfulness of jealousy, saying that where it exists “there is disorder and every evil thing” (3:16; cf. Acts 7:9). One religious writer described such jealousy as “an infantile resentment springing from unmortified covetousness, which expresses itself in envy, malice, and meanness of action” (Packer, 1973, p. 189). It seems, more often than not, that both the New Testament and the “moral code” of modern society speak of “jealousy” in a negative light.


The truth is, however, sometimes jealously can be spoken of in a good sense. The word “jealous” is translated in the Old Testament from the Hebrew word qin’ah, and in the New Testament from the Greek word zelos. The root idea behind both words is that of “warmth” or “heat” (Forrester, 1996). The Hebrew word for jealousy carries with it the idea of “redness of the face that accompanies strong emotion” (Feinberg, 1942, p. 429)—whether right or wrong. Depending upon the usage of the word, it can be used to represent both a good and an evil passion. Three times in 1 Corinthians, Paul used this word in a good sense to encourage his brethren to “earnestly desire (zeeloúte)” spiritual gifts (12:31; 14:1,39). He obviously was not commanding the Corinthians to sin, but to do something that was good and worthwhile. Later, when writing to the church at Corinth, the apostle Paul was even more direct in showing how there was such a thing as “godly jealousy.” He stated:

I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it (2 Corinthians 11:2-4, emp. added).

Paul’s burning desire was for the church at Corinth to abide in the love of God. As a friend of the bridegroom (Christ), Paul used some of the strongest language possible to encourage the “bride” of Christ at Corinth to be pure and faithful.
In a similar way, Jehovah expressed His love for Israel in the Old Testament by proclaiming to be “a jealous God” (Exodus 20:5; Deuteronomy 4:24). He was not envious of the Israelites’ accomplishments or possessions, but was communicating His strong love for them with anthropomorphic language. The Scriptures depict a spiritual marriage between Jehovah and His people. Sadly, during the period of the divided kingdom, both Israel and Judah were guilty of “playing the harlot” (Jeremiah 3:6-10). God called Israel’s idolatrous practice “adultery,” and for this reason He had “put her away and given her a certificate of divorce” (3:8). This is not the “lunatic fury of a rejected or supplanted suitor,” but a “zeal to protect a love-relationship” (Packer, p. 189). Jehovah felt for Israel “as the most affectionate husband could do for his spouse, and was jealous for their fidelity, because he willed their invariable happiness” (Clarke, 1996, emp. added). Song of Solomon 8:6 is further proof that love and jealousy are not always opposed to each other. To her beloved, the Shulamite said: “Put me like a seal over your heart, like a seal on your arm. For love is as strong as death, jealousy is as severe as Sheol; its flashes are flashes of fire, the very flame of the Lord” (NAS). In this passage, love and jealousy actually are paralleled to convey the same basic meaning (see Tanner, 1997, p. 158)—that (aside from a one’s love for God) marital love is “the strongest, most unyielding and invincible force in human experience” (NIV Study Bible, 1985, p. 1012). In this sense, being a jealous husband or wife is a good thing. As one commentator noted, married persons “who felt no jealousy at the intrusion of a lover or an adulterer into their home would surely be lacking in moral perception; for the exclusiveness of marriage is the essence of marriage” (Tasker, 1967, p. 106).
Truly, love has a jealous side. There is a sense in which one legitimately can be jealous for what rightfully belongs to him (see Numbers 25). Such is especially true in the marriage relationship. Israel was God’s chosen people (Deuteronomy 7:6). He had begun to set them apart as a special nation by blessing their “father” Abraham (Genesis 12:1ff; 17:1-27). He blessed the Israelites with much numerical growth while living in Egypt (Exodus 1:7,12,19; Deuteronomy 26:5; cf. Genesis 15:5; 46:3). He delivered them from Egyptian bondage (Exodus 3-12). And, among other things, He gave them written revelation, which, if obeyed, would bring them spiritually closer to Jehovah, and even would make them physically superior to other nations, in that they would be spared from various diseases (see Exodus 15:26). Like a bird that watches over her eggs and young with jealousy, preventing other birds from entering her nest, God watched over the Israelites with “righteous” jealousy, unwilling to tolerate the presence of false gods among his people (see Exodus 20:3-6; Joshua 24:14-16,19-20). Such “godly jealousy” (cf. 2 Corinthians 11:2) was not what Paul had in mind in 1 Corinthians 13:4.

If God is jealous for us in a good way, as you suggest, then God's jealousy would be to save us, not to destroy us. God's jealousy for us would overturn God's wrath against us.