Was Jesus A Gnostic? (ritual, Moses, Earth, mystic, beliefs)

[doppelgänger]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

The Manifestations of God are men on one level and another level of Creation altogether quite distinct from man.

Tat tvam asi, Scott. The Manifestations of God are within, not without. They cannot be, otherwise.

[doppelgänger]

Originally Posted by Sunstone

IMHO, Jesus was a mystic. If that makes him a gnostic, then so be it.

"Gnostic" can mean a lot of things, so I've generally avoided the label. But the Jesus Christ of Christian literature ("orthodox" and "gnostic") is an archetype born of mysticism. My perception is that those we refer to as "Gnostic" are more likely to open themselves to that spirit because they ask questions rather than settle on answers, and do not imagine themselves and their symbols and small and enclosed, but are opened to the mystery of being.

[A. Ben-Shema]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

God has not ever left us without a Divine Teacher. Between the time of Chri8st's advent and the advent of Muhammad that Divine Teacher was Christ. Between the time of Muhammad's advent and the advent of the Bab that Divine Teacher was Muhammad.

In history there have been times when there were more than one Divine Teacher and His 'Book" at a time because mankind's culture was in splinters from time and distance. That's not the case anymore. This is One World now. We have the ability to communicate around the world, read the words and live the lives in dedication to a single Divine Teacher.

That world is the result of one upward-lifting Dispensation of God--One Covenant.

You would take us back to the satan of self, and the hell of splintered society.

Tell me, you postulate that there must be a 'Living Master', and you tell us that you have had a revelation from God. Are you telling us YOU are a 'living Master' and we should follow you?

No, I am not a Master, merely a poor disciple.

You do not seem to understand that there is, and always has been, a never ending and continuous succession of Spiritual Masters incarnating on Earth. It has been referred to in the NT as the succession of Melchizedek.

Who do you think John the Baptist was, if not Jesus' Spiritual Master, who revealed the Mysteries to Jesus (when the Spirit of Gnosis came into Jesus at his Initiation / Baptism of Fire / Light). When Jesus died, His position was taken by another, and so forth, right down to our own day.

Peace & Love

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by doppelgänger

Tat tvam asi, Scott. The Manifestations of God are within, not without. They cannot be, otherwise.

Define "manifestation"?

God witnesseth that there is no God but Him, the Gracious, the Best-Beloved. All grace and bounty are His. To whomsoever He will He giveth whatsoever is His wish. He, verily, is the All-Powerful, the Almighty, the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting. We, verily, believe in Him Who, in the person of the Báb, hath been sent down by the Will of the one true God, the King of Kings, the All-Praised. We, moreover, swear fealty to the One Who, in the time of Mustaghath, is destined to be made manifest, as well as to those Who shall come after Him till the end that hath no end. We recognize in the manifestation of each one of them, whether outwardly 74 or inwardly, the manifestation of none but God Himself, if ye be of those that comprehend. Every one of them is a mirror of God, reflecting naught else but His Self, His Beauty, His Might and Glory, if ye will understand. All else besides them are to be regarded as mirrors capable of reflecting the glory of these Manifestations Who are themselves the Primary Mirrors of the Divine Being, if ye be not devoid of understanding. No one hath ever escaped them, neither are they to be hindered from achieving their purpose. These Mirrors will everlastingly succeed each other, and will continue to reflect the light of the Ancient of Days. They that reflect their glory will, in like manner, continue to exist for evermore, for the Grace of God can never cease from flowing. This is a truth that none can disprove.
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, p. 73)


By the dictionary:

Main Entry: man·i·fes·ta·tion
Pronunciation: "ma-n&-f&-'stA-sh&n, -"fe-'stA-
Function: noun
1 a : the act, process, or an instance of manifesting b (1) : something that manifests or is manifest (2) : a perceptible, outward, or visible expression c : one of the forms in which an individual is manifested d : an occult phenomenon; specifically : MATERIALIZATION
2 : a public demonstration of power and purpose

Regards,
Scott

[doppelgänger]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Define "manifestation"?

Appearance. It is a function of perspective. "Manifestations" do not cause perceptions. Perceptions and their interpretation into perspective cause "manifestations." You have it backward, Scott.

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

By the dictionary:
1 a : the act, process, or an instance of manifesting b (1) : something that manifests or is manifest (2) : a perceptible, outward, or visible expression c : one of the forms in which an individual is manifested d : an occult phenomenon; specifically : MATERIALIZATION
2 : a public demonstration of power and purpose

See? Read that carefully Scott. The first definition is a tautology. The second is the same as mine, which undermines your materialism. "Form" is ALWAYS a function of perspective and language. And if you don't understand the "occult" then the last two will seem to be about materialism and metaphysics, but are actually about psychology and epistemology.

Your "definition" demonstrates my point admirably.

[angellous_evangellous]

Originally Posted by A. Ben-Shema

First we must clearly define what a genuine Gnostic is. The word comes from ancient Greek (Gnosis), and means Divine (i.e. Mystical / Spiritual) experiential KNOWLEDGE of Truth / God (i.e. the “Supreme Power”, or the “ALL”). Thus a genuine Gnostic is one who has such “first-hand” Divine KNOWLEDGE of God. (N.B. NOT mere 'beliefs' and 'theories'!)

That isn't a very useful definition of Gnosticism at all, particularly if you are trying to associate Jesus with either (1) the groups of early Christians who call themselves 'Gnostics,' (2) the various groups that are identified by scholars as 'Gnostics' or (3) the groups that the church fathers identified as 'Gnostics'.

[Popeyesays]

Dear Ben,

"Occult" is a Latin word meaning "hidden". It has spiritual and magical significance, but it is also a simple application to material life--as in "occult" blood in a urine sample.

Hidden to the outward eye, but obvious when looked for.

Regards,
Scott

[angellous_evangellous]