Anyoneelse see the similarities between Belief in God and Psychosis? (beliefs, hell)

[FerventGodSeeker]

[quote]

Originally Posted by Bronze

I'm not even remotely joking right now. I stand that Theism should be considered a form of psychosis.

the primary symptom that earns you a phychotic diagnosis is the concrete belief in something absolutley ridiculous and illogical (delusion).
People get locked up over seriously believeing that the Government is ran by aliens. People do not get locked up for believing that an invisable man that is watching over us who will judge us and send us to either heaven or hell and created the universe, ect.

The main similarity between the two is their credibility. There is as much evidence that God exists as there is evidence that aliens run the government. They are both technically possible, but are lunatic, farfetcht ideas.

Heavy delusion is the primary symptom of psychosis according to wikipedia.

that in mind, the following are, according to wikipedia again, the psycological definitions of "delusion":

certainty (held with absolute conviction)
incorrigibility (not changeable by compelling counterargument or proof to the contrary)
impossibility or falsity of content (implausible, bizarre or patently untrue)

I could turn pretty much all of this around and compare it to Atheism. Good try, but your mud-slinging won't get you anywhere.

Compare religious beliefs to the beliefs of people in lunatic asylums and it's clear they are one in the same. and as you are about respond and defend your belief, remeber the bit about
" incorrigibility (not changeable by compelling counterargument or proof to the contrary) "

Well that's a nice cop out, "Remember, you can respond and explain to me why I'm wrong, but you're just proving me right."

Unfortunately for your attempted parallel, you've provided neither compelling counterargument nor proof to the contrary. You've created a silly little thread with an inflammatory title and, sadly, you might actually buy your own argument.

[fantôme profane]

Originally Posted by gracie

for me, devotion is not unlike being in love

A condition that also has been likened to insanity. But if so, it speaks well of madness.

[Haydaman]

Sigh, those discoveries and inventions still have nothing to do with religion...I guess it will never get through to you all. The twin towers, now that had nothing to do with religion! The innocent women who were accused of witchcraft and sentenced to death, were not religious! The people whom were executed by protestants in the early America, were not religious!Women are executed every day because of what they wear, or how they act..because they are not religious! In the middle ages, if you challenged the church, you were executed..because it was not religious! 6 million Jews were executed in ww2..because Hitler was not religious!

Oh wait...

And I can go on, and on..and on...killing is human nature, yes it would happen anyway. But when you remove religion from the equation the death ratio falls...you cannot remove human nature.

[Guitar's Cry]

In order for something to be termed a psychological disease, it must be considered harmful to the person or others. When theism becomes such, it is labelled as a mental disorder. But, the majority of theists are not a danger to themselves or others.

The DSM (Diagnostical and Statistical Manual) used by psychologists to diagnose patients makes it a point to account for cultural influences that may result in a belief.

Also, it should be remembered, that psychologists use the phrase "shared view of reality" when dealing with psychotic symptoms. Theism is an intricate part of our "shared view."

[Runlikethewind]

I must admit that I have very little knowledge in the way of psychology and what not. So I went to Web MD to get a better understanding of what a psychosis or delusional disorder entailed. They say:

WEB MD http://www.webmd.com/schizophrenia/d...isorder?page=1

ON DELUSIONAL DISORDERS:

Delusional disorder, previously called paranoid disorder, is a type of serious mental illness called a "psychosis" in which a person cannot tell what is real from what is imagined. The main feature of this disorder is the presence of delusions, which are unshakable beliefs in something untrue. People with delusional disorder experience non-bizarre delusions, which involve situations that could occur in real life, such as being followed, poisoned, deceived, conspired against, or loved from a distance. These delusions usually involve the misinterpretation of perceptions or experiences. In reality, however, the situations are either not true at all or highly exaggerated.

According to this definition of psychosis, the main characteristic of a delusional disorder is the belief in something that is untrue. For a belief in God to be a delusion therefore, would require that the existence of God be shown to be false or untrue. The existence of God is UNPROVEN (and I may even say that it might be unprovable under certain theories of proof, truth, and/or certainty) and not disproved. So the belief in God is not the belief in the untrue since God has not been shown to be either true or untrue. It also says the inability to tell the difference between reality and fantasy. And since the idea of God could be fantasy or reality it is not about not being able to tell the difference, it is about not knowing at all.
But it is possible that a belief in God can, at least, be hypothetically described as a mental disorder or connected to a mental disorder in some cases. Think of the wild eyed guy on the street corner with the sign saying the end is near, or the fanatic blowing up abortion clinics, or whatever. There may be in these cases a connection between the belief in God and mental disorder. But it is not upon these cases that the psychotic nature of the belief in God should be determined. So how does one diagnose a delusional disorder?

WEB MD http://www.webmd.com/schizophrenia/d...isorder?page=1

ON THE DIAGNOSIS OF D.D.:

If the doctor finds no physical reason for the symptoms, he or she might refer the person to a psychiatrist or psychologist, health care professionals who are specially trained to diagnose and treat mental illnesses. Psychiatrists and psychologists use specially designed interview and assessment tools to evaluate a person for a psychotic disorder. The doctor or therapist bases his or her diagnosis on the person's report of symptoms, and his or her observation of the person's attitude and behavior. The doctor or therapist then determines if the person's symptoms point to a specific disorder. A diagnosis of delusional disorder is made if a person has non-bizarre delusions for at least one month and does not have the characteristic symptoms of other psychotic disorders, such as schizophrenia.

According to this diagnosis method psychosis are based on the following: “The doctor or therapist bases his or her diagnosis on the person's report of symptoms, and his or her observation of the person's attitude and behavior.” So then the question would be does the attitudes and behavior of the average believer in God amount to psychotic behavior. The answer is clearly no. The average believer does not obsess over their ideas of God and/or religion to the point that their behavior would be diagnosed as psychotic.

Originally Posted by Bronze

I'm not even remotely joking right now. I stand that Theism should be considered a form of psychosis.

If it is to be considered a form of psychosis it would be a very mild form of psychosis and if it where to be considered a form of psychosis, such a broad definition would include many other beliefs to the point that all people could be found to suffer from some form of psychosis and psychosis would be a normal part of life.

Originally Posted by Bronze

the primary symptom that earns you a phychotic diagnosis is the concrete belief in something absolutley ridiculous and illogical (delusion).

By what standard is ones beliefs to be judged as ridiculous and/or illogical? The primary way of diagnosing a psychotic disorder is through ones behavior and attitude and not their belief. If a persons belief in God did not adversely effect their behavior or attitude then it would not be diagnosed as a delusional disorder.

Originally Posted by Bronze

People get locked up over seriously believeing that the Government is ran by aliens.

Only if such a belief leads to abnormal behavior which could threaten to harm themselves or someone else. There are all kinds of people, serious people, who believe in all sorts of conspiracy theories and who live perfectly normal lives, generally speaking. A person is not locked up for what they believe, they are locked up for their attitudes and behavior which can be associated with those beliefs. If one collects photos of the president that seem to indicate in that persons mind that the president is an alien they are not likely to get locked up. If one tries to kill the president because they think he is an alien, then they would be locked up.

Originally Posted by Bronze

People do not get locked up for believing that an invisable man that is watching over us who will judge us and send us to either heaven or hell and created the universe, ect.

They do get locked up if such beliefs lead to abnormal behavior or attitudes which could lead to harming themselves or others, just like any mental disorder. You see, a psychotic/mental disorder seems to have more to do with a persons reactions to their beliefs and not the beliefs in and of themselves. Having a belief in God does not entail having a mental disorder anymore than having a belief that aliens are controlling the government does. But if one tries to blow up an abortion clinic in the name of God, or one tries to kill the president thinking he is an alien, then they might be diagnosed with a mental disorder.

Originally Posted by Bronze

The main similarity between the two is their credibility. There is as much evidence that God exists as there is evidence that aliens run the government. They are both technically possible, but are lunatic, farfetcht ideas.

Again by what criterion are you judging these ideas to be farfetched, ridicules, illogical, etc? What makes the two ideas equal in credibility? The belief in alien control of the government would require physical/natural proof. Some kind of physical evidence could prove the claim to be either true or untrue. Without any such physical evidence the idea could be considered farfetched, or ridicules. No such evidence will work to prove God. God requires supernatural/metaphysical proof. I guess if you mean that neither idea has any physical evidence to support it that is true. And having no physical evidence about the aliens would make that idea farfetched, but having no physical evidence to support the idea of God doesn’t mean a thing because there can be no physical evidence to support a metaphysical concept such as God. The existence of aliens can be inferred or deduced through physical evidence, the existence of God can only be inferred and not deduced through physical evidence. And so I don’t think these two examples are at all comparable.

Originally Posted by Bronze

Heavy delusion is the primary symptom of psychosis according to wikipedia.

And we all know how reliable a source wiki can be....

Originally Posted by Bronze

that in mind, the following are, according to wikipedia again, the psycological definitions of "delusion":

certainty (held with absolute conviction)
incorrigibility (not changeable by compelling counterargument or proof to the contrary) impossibility or falsity of content (implausible, bizarre or patently untrue)

Compare religious beliefs to the beliefs of people in lunatic asylums and it's clear they are one in the same. and as you are about respond and defend your belief, remeber the bit about
" incorrigibility (not changeable by compelling counterargument or proof to the contrary) "

I am willing to grant, for the sake of argument, that the average believer would qualify under the first criterion that they are absolutely convinced and certain of their belief in God. I would be willing to admit that the second criterion is also, on average, accurate in that it is very difficult to change ones mind on this belief, it is usually strongly held. I would qualify that by saying that there is no compelling counter argument or proof that is contrary to the belief in God, it cannot be proven to be true or untrue. So the second criterion does not even apply to a belief in God since it cannot be shown to be a false belief. Which ties into the third criterion. God is not false of content or impossible. God’s being can be argued to be more or less plausible but cannot be proven or disproved in the way we understand proof today. So although I might be willing to admit that the first criterion could easily be applied to many believers, the second and third criterion do not apply since the existence of God cannot be proven or disproved and since it can be argued from certain philosophical arguments that the existence of supreme being is plausible in some form. In any event I don’t know if we should be judging the matter on a definition from Wikipedia, perhaps a more reliable definition, like the one from Web MD could be used instead?

[Quagmire]

Just by definition there's no practicle way to apply the term psychotic--a rational and/or perceptual disconnect with reality-- to theism; the acknowledgement of, or belief in a speculative, metephysical reality dependant on "faith" or immediate and unvarifiable personal experience.

You would first have to make some definite, objectively varifiable determinations about a subjective reality which, just by definition, is impossible.

In other words; in order to class a belief in God as psychotic you would first have to prove God doesn't exist and proceed from there.

In order to diagnose someone whos experienced unconventional reality as psychotic, you would have to be able to demonstrate a disconnect with ordinary reality completely aside from the experience itself.

But You are right in a sense, Bronze, in that alot of religious people, fanatics particularly, display psychotic symptoms;

Grandiosity; "I'm one of the elect"

Delusion; selective, exclusionary (and often rediculous) interpretation and perception of the apparent.

Narcissism; "It isn't enough that I'm one of God's kids, I have to be one of his favorite kids, which is why I need to believe that my religion is "right" and yours is "wrong" even if they're essentailly saying the same thing"

Paranioa; "Me and my church are an island of righteousness in an ocean of evil, that's why the world hates us" "If you're not with us you're against us" "The only reason you disagree with me and my beliefs is because you hate God (and by extention, me)".

It never ceases to amaze me the extent to which the behaviors and thought processes of certain "believers" parrelels those of advance stage alcoholics and drug addicts; all of the above plus; denial, avoidance, fragmentary thinking, it's all there.

Originally Posted by Sunstone

Joseph Campbell once said, the saint and the lunatic find themselves in the same waters. The difference is: The saint knows how to swim, the lunatic doesn't.

Love this!

Or, in reference to the mental health communitie's policy of prescriping therapy and medication across the board to anyone who's experienced non-conventional reality;

"We've gone from stoning our prophets to just getting them stoned"
---a frustrated and dissillusioned psychology major.

[Mestemia]

I voted this thread as excellent because of post #25