Free Will and Christianity (Jesus Christ, salvation, grace, choice, doctrine)

[ChristineES]

On a all-Christian board at another site, there was a discussion about whether Christians had free will or not. I was the only one who believed in free will. They threw a few verses at me but they did not convince me of anything (I have been told I am stubborn).

I am just wondering if any other Christians believe in free will. Do they believe we accept God and Jesus because we want to rather than being drawn to. (that is to say, I believe that we become Christians because we accept the teachings and such and the others believed that any one who becomes a Christian is because God wanted them to).

It sounds to me like saying there is no free will is making people make themselves become better by saying "God chose me to be a Christian"(I may be totally off the mark here, but that is what I saw and how I understood it).

I believe that anyone can accept God and not just those who are destined to.
I didn't finish the debate since one young woman accused me of not being a true Christian if I didn't agree with her. I am not easily offended but that kind of remark bothers me.
If you believe in no free will, maybe you can explain it so that I understand it better with no personal remarks about my salvation.
(I hope this post isn't too rambling)

[wizanda]

People follow what is easiest to follow….
The mustards seeds true meaning is to get your head out of boxes, so that you can be a light unto many…..
So what is the largest religion globally?
How did it become the largest religion?

Why doesn’t it follow Christ?
In that is free will, too step away from what millions are stating as solid fact, yet millions have never read any of it; yet follow it, as everyone said it was what the good thing for people to follow…..
So have you ever asked your self really is it?

[Dream Angel]

Originally Posted by ChristineES

On a all-Christian board at another site, there was a discussion about whether Christians had free will or not. I was the only one who believed in free will. They threw a few verses at me but they did not convince me of anything (I have been told I am stubborn).

I am just wondering if any other Christians believe in free will. Do they believe we accept God and Jesus because we want to rather than being drawn to. (that is to say, I believe that we become Christians because we accept the teachings and such and the others believed that any one who becomes a Christian is because God wanted them to).

It sounds to me like saying there is no free will is making people make themselves become better by saying "God chose me to be a Christian"(I may be totally off the mark here, but that is what I saw and how I understood it).

I believe that anyone can accept God and not just those who are destined to.
I didn't finish the debate since one young woman accused me of not being a true Christian if I didn't agree with her. I am not easily offended but that kind of remark bothers me.
If you believe in no free will, maybe you can explain it so that I understand it better with no personal remarks about my salvation.
(I hope this post isn't too rambling)

I would stick to this forum if thats how they are treating you!

Think of it this way - if there was no free will - there wouldnt be any different denominations, we would all think the same on the topics, noone would have an opinion - we would be like little robots. With no free will there would be no murders, no crimes committed, nobody getting hurt. Unless God was a mean, viscous dictator who liked pain and suffering and was also a liar! But hes not..... which leads me to the conclusion there is free will.

How anybody can say God is all loving, merciful, forgiving and then say there is no free will in the world with all the suffering that goes on is beyond me!

Also, I dont know what God thinks of cause, but I would rather people believed in me and had faith in me because they wanted to (which means we would trully deserve eternal glory) than a bunch of robots who were programmed to believe in me.

Sorry if that rambles slightly - its sounds better in my head

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by ChristineES

On a all-Christian board at another site, there was a discussion about whether Christians had free will or not. I was the only one who believed in free will. They threw a few verses at me but they did not convince me of anything (I have been told I am stubborn).

I am just wondering if any other Christians believe in free will. Do they believe we accept God and Jesus because we want to rather than being drawn to. (that is to say, I believe that we become Christians because we accept the teachings and such and the others believed that any one who becomes a Christian is because God wanted them to).

It sounds to me like saying there is no free will is making people make themselves become better by saying "God chose me to be a Christian"(I may be totally off the mark here, but that is what I saw and how I understood it).

I believe that anyone can accept God and not just those who are destined to.
I didn't finish the debate since one young woman accused me of not being a true Christian if I didn't agree with her. I am not easily offended but that kind of remark bothers me.
If you believe in no free will, maybe you can explain it so that I understand it better with no personal remarks about my salvation.
(I hope this post isn't too rambling)

Free will is very much a Christian idea!

Originally Posted by Catholic Encyclopedia

Catholic Doctrine

Among the early Fathers of the Church, St. Augustine stands pre-eminent in his handling of this subject. He clearly teaches the freedom of the will against the Manichæeans, but insists against the Semipelageians on the necessity of grace, as a foundation of merit. He also emphasizes very strongly the absolute rule of God over men's wills by His omnipotence and omniscience--through the infinite store, as it were, of motives which He has had at His disposal from all eternity, and by the foreknowledge of those to which the will of each human being would freely consent. St. Augustine's teaching formed the basis of much of the later theology of the Church on these questions, though other writers have sought to soften the more rigorous portions of his doctrine. This they did especially in opposition to heretical authors, who exaggerated these features in the works of the great African Doctor and attempted to deduce from his principles a form of rigid predeterminism little differing from fatalism. The teaching of St. Augustine is developed by St. Thomas Aquinas both in theology and philosophy. Will is rational appetite. Man necessarily desires beatitude, but he can freely choose between different forms of it. Free will is simply this elective power. Infinite Good is not visible to the intellect in this life. There are always some drawbacks and deficiencies in every good presented to us. None of them exhausts our intellectual capacity of conceiving the good. Consequently, in deliberate volition, not one of them completely satiates or irresistibly entices the will. In this capability of the intellect for conceiving the universal lies the root of our freedom. But God possesses an infallible knowledge of man's future actions. How is this prevision possible, if man's future acts are not necessary? God does not exist in time. The future and the past are alike ever present to the eternal mind as a man gazing down from a lofty mountain takes in at one momentary glance all the objects which can be apprehended only through a lengthy series of successive experiences by travellers along the winding road beneath, in somewhat similar fashion the intuitive vision of God apprehends simultaneously what is future to us with all it contains. Further, God's omnipotent providence exercises a complete and perfect control over all events that happen, or will happen, in the universe. How is this secured without infringement of man's freedom? Here is the problem which two distinguished schools in the Church--both claiming to represent the teaching, or at any rate the logical development of the teaching of St. Thomas--attempt to solve in different ways. The heresies of Luther and Calvin brought the issue to a finer point than it had reached in the time of Aquinas, consequently he had not formally dealt with it in its ultimate shape, and each of the two schools can cite texts from the works of the Angelic Doctor in which he appears to incline towards their particular view.

However, as you can see in the passage above, there is a tension between our free will and grace. The whole notion of free will (to choose to love God) and predestination (that we are utterly unable to choose God by ourselves) is cause for much misunderstanding and conflict, and frankly I don't anyone really understands what it is all about.

My opinion, it is like a dance. The two move in harmony and the dance requires the simultaneous will of both. I might say that God takes the lead in this dance but to move at all takes the willing participation of the partner ...but if you were to watch Fred Astair and Ginger Rogers you would not be able to pick out who moved first.

2 c,
luna

[joeboonda]

God so loved the WORLD that He gave His Son...
Whosoever will may come...
Whosoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved...
God is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance...
He that comes to God He will in NO WISE cast...
Whosoever believes in me has eternal life...

THose are phrases from the Bible, God does draw all man to himself, He wants to save everyone and anyone, yet He in His love, leaves the choice up to us. We can live in sin and wickedness and selfishness and rebellion and anger toward God for whatever reason, or we can accept His love and His free gift of eternal life through faith in Jesus Christ.

[wizanda]

Originally Posted by joeboonda

God so loved the WORLD that He gave His Son...Author John a Pharisee

Mic 6:7
(7) Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, or with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?

Whosoever will may come...??
Whosoever calls on the name of the Lord (God) shall be saved...author John a Phrisee

Mat 7:22-23
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

God is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance...Simon the Stone (peter)
He that comes to God He will in NO WISE cast...

Luk 13:25
(25) When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

Whosoever believes in me has eternal life... Author John a Pharisee

Mat 19:16-17
(16) And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
(17) And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.


Those are Pharisees from the Bible??

[joeboonda]

With all due respect, your theology is so far off, I'm not even going to bother, it would do no good. Go back to school man.

[kmkemp]

Originally Posted by Dream Angel

I would stick to this forum if thats how they are treating you!

Think of it this way - if there was no free will - there wouldnt be any different denominations, we would all think the same on the topics, noone would have an opinion - we would be like little robots. With no free will there would be no murders, no crimes committed, nobody getting hurt. Unless God was a mean, viscous dictator who liked pain and suffering and was also a liar! But hes not..... which leads me to the conclusion there is free will.

How anybody can say God is all loving, merciful, forgiving and then say there is no free will in the world with all the suffering that goes on is beyond me!

Also, I dont know what God thinks of cause, but I would rather people believed in me and had faith in me because they wanted to (which means we would trully deserve eternal glory) than a bunch of robots who were programmed to believe in me.

Sorry if that rambles slightly - its sounds better in my head

Respectfully, this is a gross oversimplification. I have a few questions for you:

1) do you believe that everything that happens has a cause?
2) do you believe that we can be held morally responsible for our actions?

[Special Revelation]

Originally Posted by ChristineES

On a all-Christian board at another site, there was a discussion about whether Christians had free will or not. I was the only one who believed in free will. They threw a few verses at me but they did not convince me of anything (I have been told I am stubborn).

I am just wondering if any other Christians believe in free will. Do they believe we accept God and Jesus because we want to rather than being drawn to. (that is to say, I believe that we become Christians because we accept the teachings and such and the others believed that any one who becomes a Christian is because God wanted them to).

It sounds to me like saying there is no free will is making people make themselves become better by saying "God chose me to be a Christian"(I may be totally off the mark here, but that is what I saw and how I understood it).

I believe that anyone can accept God and not just those who are destined to.
I didn't finish the debate since one young woman accused me of not being a true Christian if I didn't agree with her. I am not easily offended but that kind of remark bothers me.
If you believe in no free will, maybe you can explain it so that I understand it better with no personal remarks about my salvation.
(I hope this post isn't too rambling)

I believe in free will. The unbeliever is free to sin. The believer is free to enjoy God forever.

Christine...I encourage you to discuss this on the Christian website.

*Paul*...I beat you to the posting. Freedom of the Will, or Bondage of the Will!!!! I used to live near Sea World in San Diego. They had a whale named...?