Christian Faith and Law (Jesus, ritual, moral, Torah, salvation)

[ChristineES]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

Or you could say that breaking any of those 10 commandments will result in breaking or harming relationships, and thus break the greatest commandment(s): Love.

Yes, that is right. With the exception of the 4th commandment, the Ten Commandments are all about hurting God or hurting others. The 4th commandment (Sabbath) is about hurting yourself most of all, since I believe that working 7 days a week without a break can lead to exhaustion and leads to not worshipping God at least one day a week.

About baptism- this is about showing others about your new committment to Jesus. It is a symbol of the "death" of your old life and the rebirth of your new life. If one is unable to be baptized, then I don't think it will be held against him or her (as in the man on the cross next to Jesus).

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by ChristineES

Yes, that is right. With the exception of the 4th commandment, the Ten Commandments are all about hurting God or hurting others. The 4th commandment (Sabbath) is about hurting yourself most of all, since I believe that working 7 days a week without a break can lead to exhaustion and leads to not worshipping God at least one day a week.

The Sabbath commandment is very interesting. I also note that everyone in the whole household, which at the time would include servants and those working off debts, was prohibited from working. So, again it can be seen as about compassion for others, as well as setting one day apart for the Lord.

[ChristineES]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

The Sabbath commandment is very interesting. I also note that everyone in the whole household, which at the time would include servants and those working off debts, was prohibited from working. So, again it can be seen as about compassion for others, as well as setting one day apart for the Lord.

True, I never thought of that.

[doppelgänger]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

I say that the Episcopal Church is one of the most conservative: "We do not intend to believe anything that all Christians have not always believed." (Christopher Webber in Welcome to the Episcopal Church). This boils down to the Trinity and the Incarnation, asserted but not explained in the Nicene creed. (Hehe, I know I'll catch flak from doppelganger for this).

Actually it's the first statement that's a little perplexing, as the Nicene Creed doesn't represent the things "all Christians" have "always believed."

I've written much about the law and christian faith on my blog. After many years considering the issue, I don't think the idea of the "law" being fulfilled in Christ quite captures it for me. Rather, the "law" is a man-made, incomplete substitute for the Spirit of Christ. The two are contrasted as the law of the flesh/the law of sin against the law of love. They are opposites that define each other in a paradoxical relationship.

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by doppelgänger

Actually it's the first statement that's a little perplexing, as the Nicene Creed doesn't represent the things "all Christians" have "always believed."

I've written much about the law and christian faith on my blog. After many years considering the issue, I don't think the idea of the "law" being fulfilled in Christ quite captures it for me. Rather, the "law" is a man-made, incomplete substitute for the Spirit of Christ. The two are contrasted as the law of the flesh/the law of sin against the law of love. They are opposites that define each other in a paradoxical relationship.

Yes, I thought that it would be the first statement you might object to.

But I see that often the spirit of the law does line up with love. However, I agree with you (at least I think we agree on this) that the enforcement of a law is going to be antagonistic to love, and also an Absolute Law (aside from Love) is sooner or later going to come into conflict with love and compassion. The Terry Shivago case is a good example. What law could there possibly be to allow the greatest amount of love for such situations on a case by case basis? The law hinders the work of the Spirit, IMO.

In this Fallen world (metaphor) we are constanlty facing situations where we are faced with making the better of two imperfect choices...law can't handle that, but love can. But, when love fails, law is (as you say), an imperfect substitute.

[doppelgänger]

Originally Posted by lunamoth

But, when love fails, law is (as you say), an imperfect substitute.

Love fails? Amour conquista todo!

Law and love are yin-yang, certainty and uncertainty. They define and complete each other and without one there could not be the other. But as in all matters of complementarity, when one casts attention upon law, it makes it very difficult, if not impossible to see love (and vice versa).

[lunamoth]

Originally Posted by doppelgänger

Love fails? Amour conquista todo!

Law and love are yin-yang, certainty and uncertainty. They define and complete each other and without one there could not be the other. But as in all matters of complementarity, when one casts attention upon law, it makes it very difficult, if not impossible to see love (and vice versa).

C'est vrai! Love never fails (and conquers all).

When I can love.

In our (my anyway) day-to-day life I find I am unable to love perfectly. Some days I do what I need to do, just because I know I need to do it.

I agree completely with your yin-yang paradox comparison. That's perfect! If we focus on the law, it is impossible to see love...and vv...but practically speaking we move back and forth.

Luna the Libra

[Baerly]

Originally Posted by ChristineES

I have always considered the Ten Commandments as just that- Commandments. They were separate from The Law. That is why I believe that we should obey them.

Hi Christine, I hope all is well. I hope you do not mind if I respond to your post.

Did you know that the 10 Commandments were only given to the Jews (Israelites) according to (Ex,34:27). So, the Gentiles never were under the 10 comm.

If you get a chance check this lesson out.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/1659

[Baerly]

Originally Posted by ChristineES

About baptism- this is about showing others about your new committment to Jesus. It is a symbol of the "death" of your old life and the rebirth of your new life. If one is unable to be baptized, then I don't think it will be held against him or her (as in the man on the cross next to Jesus).

Hello Christine. I hope all is well.

The Lord used water as the line of demarkation on many instances in the bible. Anyone who is familar with the Old Testament will remember the story of Naaman in (2Kings 5). Naaman was a lepor. The prophet tells Naaman to go dip seven times in the Jordan river. Naaman was expecting a notable miracle and even brought alot of things to pay for such a miracle. So Naaman gets upset and starts going home,still a lepor. See, Naaman wanted to be cleansed in a manner that suited him (his way). But Naaman had a friend with him who convinced him to go and dip in the river Jordan seven times. WE should all have such a friend. Naaman obeys the prophet and goes home a healed man. Was the water important to Naaman, It sure was. If you could ask Naaman today, I am sure he would tell you so. It (water baptism) was the line of demarkation between leprosy / being healed and cleansed.

The Lord used water to separate the sinners who refused to repent and Noah and his family who were obedient to the Lords commands. The bible says that it was the water which saved Noah and his family (1Peter 3:20).

If we will look to the New Testament we will find that in (Acts 22:16) that Sauls (the apostle Paul) sIns were not washed away till water baptism. Notice please;
1.Arise
2. Be Baptized
3. Wash away your sins
4. Calling on the name of the Lord.

That is what happened to those in (Acts 2:36-47) & (Acts 8:38).

If the bible says baptism saves, surely we would believe it (1Peter 3:21).

Baptism doth also now save us - (1Peter 3:21).

As far as the thief on the cross,here is a great lesson:

He (the thief) was not subject to the N.T Law (Heb.9:15-17).

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2321

Baerly