Are equal rights for gays incompatible with religious liberty? (homosexuality, marriage)

[Mestemia]

Originally Posted by logician

Does anyone really know the lifestyle of the supposed Jesus, from scripture, on the surface, it doesn't appear to be heterosexual.

What does this have to do with the topic at hand?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Originally Posted by Green Gaia

I question was asked because some religious conservatives are claiming that treating gays like fully equal citizens and human beings is incompatible with the conservatives' religious liberty. That they should be allowed, because of their religion, to deny gay people equal rights.

Yes, but what are reasonable limits of "liberty"?

If the claim is that people should be able to do whatever they want in the name of religion, then the folks asking for that sort of religious liberty should start by making sacramental marijuana legal for Rastafarians, allowing Hindus to outlaw beef for everyone, and releasing the remaining 9-11 conspirators.

[logician]

Originally Posted by Mestemia

What does this have to do with the topic at hand?

If Christians accepted the possibility that Jesus was not necessarily a heterosexual, a lot.

[Mestemia]

Originally Posted by logician

If Christians accepted the possibility that Jesus was not necessarily a heterosexual, a lot.

Since the Bible is not clear either way, and from my knowledge of it, (the Bible) one can just as effectively say that Jesus married as one can that Jesus did not marry.
Though I would be more inclined, based upon the Bible alone, that Jesus did not marry, since there is no mention of him being married.

So basically, unless you are going to argue a long line of snowballing "what ifs" your whole point is rather moot.

[Green Gaia]

Originally Posted by 9-10ths_Penguin

Yes, but what are reasonable limits of "liberty"?

If the claim is that people should be able to do whatever they want in the name of religion, then the folks asking for that sort of religious liberty should start by making sacramental marijuana legal for Rastafarians, allowing Hindus to outlaw beef for everyone, and releasing the remaining 9-11 conspirators.

I'm failing to see how any of those circumstances you mentioned are in the same category as marriage. Maybe you could restate your opinion?

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Originally Posted by Green Gaia

I'm failing to see how any of those circumstances you mentioned are in the same category as marriage. Maybe you could restate your opinion?

They're all in the category of freedom of religion. It seems to me like the claim that equal rights for gays is incompatible with freedom of religion assumes an absolute freedom of religion, regardless of reasonable limits and effects on others.

- for reasons rooted in their religion, Rastafarians smoke marijuana as a sacrament. In the United States, this is illegal; Rastafarians do not have absolute religious freedom.

- Hindu teaching (as I understand it) is that the slaughter of any cow is wrong. If they are not able to protect every single cow, Hindus do not have absolute religious freedom.

- the 9/11 conspirators engaged in actions that arose out of their religious beliefs. Those who did not die in those actions are now imprisoned because of them, since the actions are viewed by the State (and myself, and, IMO most reasonable people) as illegal and wrong. Not being able to engage in the dictates of your faith, however warped it may be, without imprisonment implies a lack of absolute religious freedom.

I think the second example I gave is the closest analogy to denial of rights to gay people. Consider these two statements:

- "because my beliefs rooted in my religion say it's wrong, you should not engage in homosexuality"
- "because my beliefs rooted in my religion say it's wrong, you should not eat beef"

[Green Gaia]

Except, (and correct me if I'm wrong, Hindus), I've never heard a Hindu say that everyone should not eat beef or that they have to protect every single cow. They do not force their belief on others that they themselves should abstain from beef.

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Originally Posted by Green Gaia

Except, (and correct me if I'm wrong, Hindus), I've never heard a Hindu say that everyone should not eat beef or that they have to protect every single cow. They do not force their belief on others that they themselves should abstain from beef.

Could be. My knowledge of Hinduism is far from thorough. I always thought that their not forcing their beliefs on others in this regard, at least in the West, was because of the impracticality of a small minority doing so.

[DallasApple]

Its enchroachment..

Love

Dallas