The Christian and Baha'i view of Resurrection (Jesus, ritual, testimony)

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings redux! :-)

Now that we have a new thread specifically for this topic, here we go! :-)

Originally Posted by BruceDLimber

The short answer is yes!

The Baha'i scriptures state that Jesus was crucified and died on the cross, and that the Resurrection is spiritual, not physical (as Christ Himself indicated in the Gospels).

(The discusison of the Crucifixion is in Some Answered Questions, of of the roughly 200 volumes of Baha'i scripture.)

And we also accept both the Bible and the Qur'an as legitimate, God-sent scripture which in fact are in harmony about this.

Originally Posted by Muffled

If that is what the Ba'hai scripture says about the resurrection, it appears to be in contradiction to what the Bible says.

Not in the least!

Both the Bible and the Baha'i scriptures describe the Resurrection as a spiritual--not a physical--event!

I refer you to First Corinthians 15:42-44 & 50:

"So it is with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a physical boty; it is raised a spiritual body.... I tell you this, brethren: Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable."

And Christ HImself also affirms this!:

John 3:6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Sip;rit is spirit."

John 4:24 "God is a spirit."

(IOW the essence of Christ is the Spirit and is born of God; flesh is not the same essence.)

John 6:62 "It is the spirit that gies life; the flesh is of no avail."

John 3:13 "... the Son of Man is in Heaven."

(Please note that Christ spoke this while on earth, making clear that this is a spiritual--not a physical--state!)

John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing."

So if we believe the Bible, we've established that the flesh wil die and only the spirit survives and prevails! Hence, Resurrection is a spiritual--not a physical--event.

(BTW, the spelling is Baha'i. If it'll help, "baha" means "glory" and the suffix yields the adjective form, so that "Baha'i" literally means "of Glory.")

Best regards, :-)

Bruce

[Booko]

Did I miss a thread this got split from? *confused look*

[UnityNow101]

If the resurrection was merely spiritual and not physical, than all of the apostles of the past and early church leaders must have missed the memo? Clearly, all of the early Christians felt that the Resurrection was a physical one, for if it wasn't, than Jesus was just as any other prophet or man. Everyone dies and rises spiritually. The disciples believed and seen with their own eyes that Jesus distinguished Himself as the one that rose from the dead physically, thus seperating Him from the likes of anyone else. The Bahai perspective on A LOT of Bible passages is spiritual including all of Jesus' miracles. Jesus did more than the other so-called Manifestations, plain and simple. I love what Bahaullah taught and think that he was a man of upright character. But he did no miracles nor did he rise from the dead. Wouldn't you think that Jesus at His Second Coming would do greater things than He did at the first advent? Just think about it and judge fairly.

[Popeyesays]

Unity,

It appears that you have made up your mind about Christ and Baha`u'llah; I don't agree with your conclusion, of course, but you have every right to decide as you will.

You sent me a PM, to which I responded, I felt at the time that you were trying to convince me that being Baha`i was somhow wrong, and that I should follow your reasoning about Jesus being superior to Baha`u'llah. I don't agree, but your opinion does not sway me because I have reached my own opinion by investigating the truth of the religions for myself. I'm not terribly swayable by other's reasoned appeals to me to accept their opinion over my own conclusions.
Prayer revealed by Baha`u'llah:
"XLI.
Thy unity is inscrutable, O my God, to all except them that have recognized Him Who is the Manifestation of Thy singleness and the Day-Spring of Thy oneness. Whoso assigneth a rival unto Him hath assigned a rival unto Thee, and whoso hath set up a peer for Him hath set up a peer for Thyself. No, no, none can withstand Thee in the whole of creation. Thou hast everlastingly been exalted far above all comparison and likeness. Thy oneness hath been demonstrated by the oneness of Him Who is the Dawning-Place of Thy Revelation. Whosoever denieth this, hath denied Thy unity, and disputed with Thee about Thy sovereignty, and contended with Thee in Thy realm, and repudiated Thy commandments.
Assist Thou Thy servants, O my Lord, to recognize Thy unity and to declare Thy oneness, that all may gather together around what Thou didst desire in this Day whereon the sun of Thine essence hath shone forth above the horizon of Thy will, and the moon 58 of Thine own being hath risen from the Day-Spring of Thy behest. Thou art He, O my Lord, from Whose knowledge nothing whatsoever escapeth, and Whom no one can frustrate. Thou doest Thy pleasure, by Thy sovereignty that overshadoweth the worlds.
Thou well knowest, O my God, my Best-Beloved, that naught can quench the thirst I suffer in my separation from Thee except the waters of Thy presence, and that the tumult of my heart can never be stilled save through the living fountain of my reunion with Thee. Send down, then, upon me, O my Lord, out of the heaven of Thy bounty what will draw me nearer unto the chalice of Thy gifts, and make me able to quaff the choice sealed Wine, Whose seal hath been loosed in Thy name, and from Which the sweet savors of Thy days have been shed abroad. Thou, in truth, art the All-Bountiful, Whose grace is infinite.
The whole universe testifieth to Thy generosity. Have mercy, then, upon me by Thy graciousness, and deal bountifully with me through the power of Thy sovereignty, and suffer me to enjoy near access to Thee by Thy manifold favors. Thou, truly, art the Great Giver, the Almighty, the Ever-Forgiving, the Most Bountiful"
(Baha'u'llah, Prayers and Meditations by Baha'u'llah, p. 58)

(Baha'u'llah, Prayers and Meditations by Baha'u'llah, p. 57)

[Popeyesays]

" But he did no miracles nor did he rise from the dead. "

Can we discuss the nature of miracles and the miracles associated with the Bab, Baha`u'llah and Abdu'l Baha in this thread?

Regards,
Scott

[BruceDLimber]

Originally Posted by Booko

Did I miss a thread this got split from? *confused look*

It was split off from the "Did Jesus die?" thread as being a new topic.

Best,

Bruce

[BruceDLimber]

Originally Posted by UnityNow101

If the resurrection was merely spiritual and not physical, than all of the apostles of the past and early church leaders must have missed the memo?

Like it or not, it happens all the time!

Originally Posted by UnityNow101

I love what Bahaullah taught and think that he was a man of upright character. But he did no miracles nor did he rise from the dead.

You're quite mistaken: Baha'u'llah was known for doing miracles.

The difference is that the Baha'i scriptures point out that miracles are no proof of anything--indeed, the Bible itself points out that false prophets can perform miracles!

So we don't use them for teaching the Faith.

(And arguably one of the most spectacular miracles happened early in the Baha'i Era during the time of the Bab.)

Originally Posted by UnityNow101

Wouldn't you think that Jesus at His Second Coming would do greater things than He did at the first advent? Just think about it and judge fairly.

No.

I don't presume to tell God how to conduct His Divine Revelation. He presumably knows how to go about this better than do I, the more so given that He also gave us free will!

As the Baha'i scriptures point out, if God made the Advent of His Messengers so spectacular as to be undeniable, this would be a total refutation / denial of free will because humanity would then have no choice whatever but to shut up and endorse His Messenger!

Further, as they say regarding miracles:

Chapter 22: MIRACLES

“Question.—It is recorded that miracles were performed by Christ. Are the reports of these miracles really to be accepted literally, or have they another meaning? It has been proved by exact science that the essence of things does not change, and that all beings are under one universal law and organization from which they cannot deviate; and, therefore, that which is contrary to universal law is impossible. “
“Answer.—The Holy Manifestations are the sources of miracles and the originators of wonderful signs. For Them, any difficult and impracticable thing is possible and easy. For through a supernatural power wonders appear from Them; and by this power, which is beyond nature, They influence the world of nature. From all the Manifestations marvelous things have appeared.
“But in the Holy Books an especial terminology is employed, and for the Manifestations these miracles and wonderful signs have no importance. They do not even wish to mention them. For if we consider miracles a great proof, they are still only proofs and arguments for those who are present when they are performed, and not for those who are absent.
“For example, if we relate to a seeker, a stranger to Moses and Christ, marvelous signs, he will deny them and will say: “Wonderful signs are also continually related of false gods by the testimony of many people, and they are affirmed in the Books. The Brahmans have written a book about wonderful prodigies from Brahma.” He will also say: “How can we know that the Jews and the Christians speak the truth, and that the Brahmans tell a lie? For both are generally admitted traditions, which are collected in books, and may be supposed to be true or false.” The same may be said of other religions: if one is true, all are true; if one is accepted, all must be accepted. Therefore, miracles are not a proof. For if they are proofs for those who are present, they fail as proofs to those who are absent.
“But in the day of the Manifestation the people with insight see that all the conditions of the Manifestation are miracles, for They are superior to all others, and this alone is an absolute miracle. Recollect that Christ, solitary and alone, without a helper or protector, without armies and legions, and under the greatest oppression, uplifted the standard of God before all the people of the world, and withstood them, and finally conquered all, although outwardly He was crucified. Now this is a veritable miracle which can never be denied. There is no need of any other proof of the truth of Christ.
“The outward miracles have no importance for the people of Reality. If a blind man receives sight, for example, he will finally again become sightless, for he will die and be deprived of all his senses and powers. Therefore, causing the blind man to see is comparatively of little importance, for this faculty of sight will at last disappear. If the body of a dead person be resuscitated, of what use is it since the body will die again? But it is important to give perception and eternal life—that is, the spiritual and divine life. For this physical life is not immortal, and its existence is equivalent to nonexistence. So it is that Christ said to one of His disciples: “Let the dead bury their dead;” for “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.”_/1
“Observe: those who in appearance were physically alive, Christ considered dead; for life is the eternal life, and existence is the real existence. Wherever in the Holy Books they speak of raising the dead, the meaning is that the dead were blessed by eternal life; where it is said that the blind received sight, the signification is that he obtained the true perception; where it is said a deaf man received hearing, the meaning is that he acquired spiritual and heavenly hearing. This is ascertained from the text of the Gospel where Christ said: “These are like those of whom Isaiah said, They have eyes and see not, they have ears and hear not; and I healed them.” _/2
“The meaning is not that the Manifestations are unable to perform miracles, for They have all power. But for Them inner sight, spiritual healing and eternal life are the valuable and important things. Consequently, whenever it is recorded in the Holy Books that such a one was blind and recovered his sight, the meaning is that he was inwardly blind, and that he obtained spiritual vision, or that he was ignorant and became wise, or that he was negligent and became heedful, or that he was worldly and became heavenly.
“As this inner sight, hearing, life and healing are eternal, they are of importance. What, comparatively, is the importance, the value and the worth of this animal life with its powers? In a few days it will cease like fleeting thoughts. For example, if one relights an extinguished lamp, it will again become extinguished; but the light of the sun is always luminous. This is of importance. “

(Footnotes


1.
Matt. 8:22; John 3:6.
2.
Cf. Matt. 13:14 and John 12:40–41.


--Some Answered Questions, pp. 100-102

As I see it, God seems to prefer letting each of us choose our own path, be it for better or for worse.

Peace,

Bruce

[BruceDLimber]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

" But he did no miracles nor did he rise from the dead. "

Can we discuss the nature of miracles and the miracles associated with the Bab, Baha`u'llah and Abdu'l Baha in this thread?

Why not, indeed?! :-)

Bruce