Monotheism and Dualism... again (Creator, creation, theist, bible, POV)

[Halcyon]

This stems from this thread;
Why Can't Monotheism Escape Dualism?

"Why Can't Monotheism Escape Dualism?"

In it Booko and some others brought up the concept of God being all good, and evil being the absence of God - like darkness is the absence of light; stupidity is the absence of wisdom etc...

This was a very compelling argument, but after having some time to think about it i believe i've figured out its flaw.

If we start with the stance that God is all good, as is the concept maintained by several monotheistic religions it begs the question why is there evil - if God is all good and only good, then where does evil have its origin?

If we look at the evil being the absence of good argument, in the frame of the darkness being the absence of light argument we see that it is indeed true that darkness has no existence in and of itself.

However, if we look in depth we find that there is more to it than that. A dark room is dark because there is no light, ok, so we introduce a light source and the darkness is "gone".
The problem is, if there is no darkness how can there be anything to introduce light too? If the darkness had no source independent of the absence of light, there would be only light. This is the flaw i see in the evil = absence of good argument.

And i believe this is the solution;
The room is the source of the darkness, the room prevents the light from crossing its boundaries, thus creating a space where there is darkness - the state that is the absence of light.

There could not be an absence of light if there were nothing independent of the light creating a space where light does not exist.

Now if we lose the analogy and return to God, good and evil. If God is all good, and God is the only God, the source of all existence - i.e. a monotheistic God, we have a problem.
For there to be an 'absence of good' aka evil, there must exist an independent variable creating a safe haven for evil to "exist", a place where the light of God - that all pervasive source of existence - cannot enter.

If God is all good, and his creation is all good, then where does this place which allows for an absence of good come from?
Either God would have to withdraw His presence from a place to create an absence of God - and in doing so create a place that exists independently of God or something external and independant of God is forcing God out.

Either way we have our dualism, we have God and we have not-God.

[Malkav's Knight]

Brilliant!!! This is an interesting subject. I think the only real way to debate this topic is on the metaphorical field and by individual interpretations. You ask "if God is all good and only good, then where does evil have its origin?" The answer is simple. God is the origin of evil. Now before people get enraged by this comment, let me explain. You are trying to equate Monotheism with 1 trait. i.e. Good. Monothesim is the concept of a single God i.e Christianity, rather than Polytheism which is the concept of many Gods, i.e. Bhuddism. The idea of Duelism can easily go hand-in-hand with Monothesim. You see, Christianity equates Bad with Satan. Satan was created by God. We cant forget that Gods angels where designed to be obediant. God created Satan the way Satan is. Satan is just a title meaning: "God's Adversary". It is safe to say that Gos created Satan to be "evil" as the way to test humans at every turn. God is Dualistic. God is Good and Bad. God created evil and exhibits both traits. Killing the first born of egypt is a pretty evil thing to do. And it was ordered by God. The point is that Dualism can exist in Monothesim because all Monotheism is is the belief in 1 god rather than many. Evil has its origin from God itself.

[Malkav's Knight]

The other problem is that people want God to be all good, but in doing do are disregarding alot of what thier own bible says. The want so desparatly to believe that God is only good yet they dont understand that if God is the creator and lord of everything, and we as a human race know of evil, then God has to have created evil as well.Good and evil are one in the same. Its all about perspective. Hitler never thought he was evil, he believed he was doing Gods work.

[Comet]

From a Monist POV:

Monotheism must have Dualism. Dualism is the root cause of Monotheism.

Rather: Dualism is the first cause of Monotheism. Really interchangeable, but they go hand and hand.

[Ozzie]

Originally Posted by Halcyon

This stems from this thread;
Why Can't Monotheism Escape Dualism?

"Why Can't Monotheism Escape Dualism?"

In it Booko and some others brought up the concept of God being all good, and evil being the absence of God - like darkness is the absence of light; stupidity is the absence of wisdom etc...

This was a very compelling argument, but after having some time to think about it i believe i've figured out its flaw.

If we start with the stance that God is all good, as is the concept maintained by several monotheistic religions it begs the question why is there evil - if God is all good and only good, then where does evil have its origin?

If we look at the evil being the absence of good argument, in the frame of the darkness being the absence of light argument we see that it is indeed true that darkness has no existence in and of itself.

However, if we look in depth we find that there is more to it than that. A dark room is dark because there is no light, ok, so we introduce a light source and the darkness is "gone".
The problem is, if there is no darkness how can there be anything to introduce light too? If the darkness had no source independent of the absence of light, there would be only light. This is the flaw i see in the evil = absence of good argument.

And i believe this is the solution;
The room is the source of the darkness, the room prevents the light from crossing its boundaries, thus creating a space where there is darkness - the state that is the absence of light.

There could not be an absence of light if there were nothing independent of the light creating a space where light does not exist.

Now if we lose the analogy and return to God, good and evil. If God is all good, and God is the only God, the source of all existence - i.e. a monotheistic God, we have a problem.
For there to be an 'absence of good' aka evil, there must exist an independent variable creating a safe haven for evil to "exist", a place where the light of God - that all pervasive source of existence - cannot enter.

If God is all good, and his creation is all good, then where does this place which allows for an absence of good come from?
Either God would have to withdraw His presence from a place to create an absence of God - and in doing so create a place that exists independently of God or something external and independant of God is forcing God out.

Either way we have our dualism, we have God and we have not-God.

Why is it that we cannot see the light emitted from certain stars? Would we be able to see it all if we were mounted on the Hubble telescope? Or would there still be light that does not reach us? Is a space as a source necessary for absence of light, or is space itself the problem? Either way, are there limits to using the perceptual analogy of light/darkness to understanding the problem of Good God Vs. Evil?

[Willamena]

Originally Posted by Halcyon

If we look at the evil being the absence of good argument, in the frame of the darkness being the absence of light argument we see that it is indeed true that darkness has no existence in and of itself.

A dark room is dark because there is no light, ok, so we introduce a light source and the darkness is "gone".

The problem is, if there is no darkness how can there be anything to introduce light too? If the darkness had no source independent of the absence of light, there would be only light. This is the flaw i see in the evil = absence of good argument.

Really, the solution is in the definition of "existence". Saying "darkness does not exist" is illogical, as it obviously exists as darkness.

I tried to think of a reply in the context of the logical puzzle you have posed, but seriously, the answer to your confusion is that the dualism you are trying to address is not the dualism you should be addressing. It's not going to ever make sense this way.

[astarath]

The misconception is merely this. We assign names to opposing forces in order to symbolize and comprehend. What God is...truly is beyond our grasp. We are not to label him period. We say he is all good but really it is void from what we associate with the will of evil.

Sure God can be all Good, as many people are. Evil is pure Greed. But like Malkav's Knight said, people through History that we consider Bad believed they were doing Gods work. I think that you have the ability to listen with your ears to your heart, meditation while being physicaly active. Choices are there to be made, you are born free of Sin, if you find God on your path, you may realize you have sinned, you may turn to Christ, you might Jump in a River (without drowning) to deal with and flush away that Sin(s) as best as you can. I believe that God can only work with individuals who Love and Care, whome can listen to their hearts through their ears. Someone who was deaf could probably read, and concentrate the reading into their heart and the answer would come to them. If you sit in a room with no windows with the light on or off does it matter, it's the Inner-light that runs through your Heart and Soul that matters, concentrate on a world subject listen to your Heart and the answer comes.
That's my way.(The Inner-Light: Creation Itself)

[Halcyon]

Originally Posted by Ozzie

Why is it that we cannot see the light emitted from certain stars? Would we be able to see it all if we were mounted on the Hubble telescope? Or would there still be light that does not reach us? Is a space as a source necessary for absence of light, or is space itself the problem? Either way, are there limits to using the perceptual analogy of light/darkness to understanding the problem of Good God Vs. Evil?

I would say there are limits, as i don't see it as a good analogy anyway - hence my attempt at refutation above.

Originally Posted by Willamena

Really, the solution is in the definition of "existence". Saying "darkness does not exist" is illogical, as it obviously exists as darkness..

Hmmm, i disagree with that. I think the people who use this analogy are correct, in that darkness does not exist, it is the absence of light - much like a vacuum does not exist as an object in and of itself, it is mearly the absence of matter.

Originally Posted by Willamena

I tried to think of a reply in the context of the logical puzzle you have posed, but seriously, the answer to your confusion is that the dualism you are trying to address is not the dualism you should be addressing. It's not going to ever make sense this way.

It all depends on whether you agree with the God is All Good POV Willa. I tried my best to refute the argument i was presented with, i personally don't have to deal with the problem of evil, as i see good and evil coming from the same source, like Islam does. There is no dualism in Islam as far as i am aware, everything has it's origin with God.

This was my attempt to counter the argument presented to me in the "Why can't Monotheism Escape Dualism" thread. I think i've succeeded in showing that even the Baha'i concept of evil as an absence of God is a dualism - "of God" and "not-of-God". I don't really see how in a monotheism there can be a not-of-God.

[Comet]

Originally Posted by Halcyon

This was my attempt to counter the argument presented to me in the "Why can't Monotheism Escape Dualism" thread. I think i've succeeded in showing that even the Baha'i concept of evil as an absence of God is a dualism - "of God" and "not-of-God". I don't really see how in a monotheism there can be a not-of-God.

Interesting question indeed...

Just to kick around a few ideas to maybe get what it is you are looking for:

Why would there be the 10 Commandments? Those things are not of God, which is why it is not approved of.... they are un-godly and "not-of-God"

What of the Rig Veda speaking of the being/non-being? (different way to go here, so I'll refrain)

What of the concept of hell (to some)? It is the place where God does not exist, where we go if we are not of God's ways. It is "not-of-God" as it is the absence of God to those who believe there is no relief or freedom from it.

Even if God created Satan, some believe that Satan has created other things. If the un-godly side of Satan created something that is opposed to God, would that not be a "not-of-God" or lack of God senario just the same?

Even if God created hell to punish those not in God's ways, wouldn't that be a place "not-of-God" since only the others return unto him?

If the God of monotheism is self-created and created all, what of the things/places that are still uncreated? (that is worded badly.... but has to due with your room analogy. The uncreated would be "not-of-God" since God has not made it so, if that made sence?)

PS- What is your definition of Monotheism?