Where did God come from ? (experience, theist, Biblical, verse)

[michel]

O.K; I was walking this morning, and, as usual started thinking, and went a bit "outside the Box"............

This is aimed probably more so - at non-theist as theists..

We all know about the big bang, and strings (well, I say we know about, because I know these theories exist - but haven't the mental capacity to understand them) .

I had a thought, this morning; like I said.

What if God was created at the same time, by the same process, as our universe was created ? The idea being that the "chaos" of the big bang produced "the energy" that was, in fact, God ?

Secondly, take this further.. we theists (at least some of us) believe in a devil..
Whenever something - maybe a "force" like God is crearted, there is an equal and opposite force created at the same time ...The devil ? (sort of along the lines of matter/anti matter). Biblical texts (IMO) are written in such a way as to simplify the understanding of man (at that point in time) about the concept of God.

Imagine these two powerful, opposing "forces" which embodied themselves into "souls" - chips off the wooden block sort of idea.. The original mass being God, and the rest of us being the wood chips ?

Could that scenario tempt any non theists into being prepared, for the first time, to accept the possibility of God?

I am sure I shall be tuna whipped by some theists..but, what the heck..

[zoro]

Michel: In response to your (rhetorical?) question, "Where did God come from?", I expect that, eventually, everyone will agree that "God" came from people's thoughts.

As for accepting the "possibility" of God, surely every (sane!) person does accept such a possibility -- just as every (sane!) person accepts the possibility that there is no god. The more stimulating question is to ask for the probability of any god's existence.

If you'll think about your "scenario" more, then I expect that you'll see that you're asking the original "total nothingness" to pull off quite a stunt! Thus, the Big Bang may have occurred because of a single, symmetry-breaking fluctuation in a total void (e.g., the formation of the first "string" of positive energy, which refused to re-associate itself with its "negative-energy counterpart", i.e., an "anti-string"), but meanwhile, you're asking the universe to pop into existence a full-fledged god! In my book (which you can find by typing "zenofzero" in a Google search), I estimate that the probability of what you're suggesting to be very much less than one chance in a google (i.e., very much less than one chance in 10^100 -- and more likely closer to 1 chance in 10^500). That's a mighty small chance.

But I grant you: there is a slight chance that some god does exist, somewhere. Further, the chance increases if the (untestable?) idea of "multiverses" is found to have any validity, since it suggest that there are somewhere around 10^500 universes! But then, just as the chance of drawing two aces in a row is not twice the chance of drawing one but, instead, very much smaller (viz., 4/52 x 3/51), therefore the probability for some god to have been created with our universe would be ~10^ (-500) x 10^(-500) = 1 chance in 10^1000 -- which is close enough to zero "for government work"!

[Ozzie]

Originally Posted by michel

O.K; I was walking this morning, and, as usual started thinking, and went a bit "outside the Box"............

This is aimed probably more so - at non-theist as theists..

We all know about the big bang, and strings (well, I say we know about, because I know these theories exist - but haven't the mental capacity to understand them) .

I had a thought, this morning; like I said.

What if God was created at the same time, by the same process, as our universe was created ? The idea being that the "chaos" of the big bang produced "the energy" that was, in fact, God ?

Secondly, take this further.. we theists (at least some of us) believe in a devil..
Whenever something - maybe a "force" like God is crearted, there is an equal and opposite force created at the same time ...The devil ? (sort of along the lines of matter/anti matter). Biblical texts (IMO) are written in such a way as to simplify the understanding of man (at that point in time) about the concept of God.

Imagine these two powerful, opposing "forces" which embodied themselves into "souls" - chips off the wooden block sort of idea.. The original mass being God, and the rest of us being the wood chips ?

Could that scenario tempt any non theists into being prepared, for the first time, to accept the possibility of God?

I am sure I shall be tuna whipped by some theists..but, what the heck..

Sounds like a damn good easily defendable argument for dualism.

[zoro]

Ozzie: If by "dualism" you include the idea of yin and yang (or positives and negatives), then I'd agree. Thus, it's suggested that "in the beginning" (when time, itself started!), the original "total nothingness" separated itself into positive and negative components (energy, momentum, electrical charge, etc.). Stated differently, the Tao (i.e. "that which can not be spoken about" -- because we have no experience with "total nothingness" and therefore our words fail) separated into yin and yang.

[doppelgänger]

Originally Posted by michel

I had a thought, this morning; like I said.

What if God was created at the same time, by the same process, as our universe was created ?

It is true that God was created at the same time and by the same person as our universe was created. But I'm still not a theist.

[zoro]

doppelganger: On what do you base your statement "It is true that God was created at the same time and by the same person as our univese was created." What evidence supports the idea that some "person" created our universe -- especially given that "people" seem to be rather "late comers".

[doppelgänger]

Originally Posted by zoro

doppelganger: On what do you base your statement "It is true that God was created at the same time and by the same person as our univese was created." What evidence supports the idea that some "person" created our universe -- especially given that "people" seem to be rather "late comers".

What is the universe? Where does it exist and in what form?

[zoro]

Well of course "the answer" isn't yet "known", but maybe we're getting closer. To respond more rapidly, then (if I'm allowed!) I'll just paste, here, what I posted earier today for a different thread.

Relative to your question "what… action… caused…it [the Big Bang]?", the suggestion is that in such "fluctuations" in the original "total nothingness", some symmetry was broken (perhaps "parity", perhaps "the God particle" formed, or perhaps a "string" of positive energy "tied itself in a knot"), resulting in the Big Bang, leading to the separation of energy into positive and negative parts that today we call "the universe", with some of the positive energy in what we call mass and the negative energy being what we call "the vacuum", but with the total energy (and momentum, electrical charge, etc.) still summing to exactly zero, as it was before the Big Bang. That is, there is still "nothing" here, but it's been separated into positive and negative components.

That's what Edward Tryon meant, in his 1974 Nature article (vol. 248, p.396) entitled "Is the Universe a Vacuum Fluctuation", when we wrote

"In answer to the question of why it happened, I offer the modest proposal that our Universe is simply one of those things which happen from time to time."

Similarly, it's what Alan Guth meant (as quoted on p. 129 of Stephen Hawking's book "A Brief History of Time"):

“It is said that there’s no such thing as a free lunch. But the universe is the ultimate free lunch.”

If such ideas interest you, you may want to look at my (free!) online book, which you can find by typing "zenofzero" in a Google search, where I try to explain them (and other ideas) in more detail, and which I explicitly wrote for my teenage granddaughter. The book is entitled "Love Letters from Grampa -- about Life, Liberty, and the Zen of Zero." The "Zen of Zero" phrase refers both to the universe creating itself from "the original nothing" (i.e., zero) and to resulting influences of such ideas on how we might want to live our lives. For example, there's Einstein's famous remark:

"Once you can accept the universe as matter expanding into nothing that is something, [then] wearing stripes with plaid comes easy."

[End of paste]

Specifically re. your questions, "What is the universe?" and "in what form", the universe appears to be a separation of "totally nothing" into positive and negative components (e.g., some of the positive energy has "congealed" into mass, and the negative energy is what we call "space" or "the vacuum"). And re. your question "Where does it exist?", unfortunately that question has no meaning, since locations only have meaning if momentum exists, and assuming that there is no momentum "outside" our universe, then 'location' has no meaning.

[Cordoba]

God is Eternal

He is not constrained by time, nor by the laws of cause and effect

You may wish to have a look at this article

Who Created God?

http://en.fgulen.com/content/view/584/5/