Where did God come from ? (experience, theist, Biblical, verse)

[michel]

Originally Posted by zoro

As for "what is God" -- that's where I'd agree that one is dealing with just an idea.

Can you be sure ? (sorry)

[doppelgänger]

Originally Posted by zoro

I'd argue that most of us have come to the conclusion (based on an overwhelming amount of evidence) that the universe is more than just "an idea".

I agree. The issue is, however, whether that conclusion is valid. Can you single it out by pointing someone to "the Universe"? Can you color it red to distinguish it? Can your mind take it in and capture it through your senses as a thing? Or is it merely an interpretation?

Originally Posted by zoro

As for "what is God" -- that's where I'd agree that one is dealing with just an idea.

Most people have come to the conclusion (based on an overwhelming amount of evidence) that God is more than just "an idea." They are even prepared to accept the possibility that God will continue even when they are dead (and no longer have any ideas).

But the issue again is whether that conclusion is valid.

[michel]

Originally Posted by doppelgänger

I agree. The issue is, however, whether that conclusion is valid. Can you single it out by pointing someone to "the Universe"? Can you color it red to distinguish it? Can your mind take it in and capture it through your senses as a thing? Or is it merely an interpretation?


Most people have come to the conclusion (based on an overwhelming amount of evidence) that God is more than just "an idea." They are even prepared prepared to accept the possibility that God will continue even when they are dead (and no longer have any ideas).

But the issue again is whether that conclusion is valid.

I hate this sort of discussion; can you, doppelgänger, prove to me that the Earth is sperical ? (without resorting to second hand say so's and apparently evinced pictures from space).

[zoro]

Cordoba: Re. your statement that I quote below.

"OK, lets take it step-by-step
"The universe exists, and it is not eternal as it's only around 14 billion years old.
"Right?"

I agree that such is what the data suggest.

"Can you (prove) where the universe comes from?"

Well, as far as I know, nothing dealing with reality can be "proved" -- including that statement! That is, "proof" and "truth" are concepts appropriate only for what are called "closed systems" (e.g., such as various games, mathematics, all "holy books", etc.). Thus I can "prove" that Superman is weakened by Kryptonite, that God parted the "Reed" Sea, and that Allah made the universe, because it says so in the respective "holy books" (counting a Superman comic book right up there with the Bible and the Koran). Meanwhile, though, in the "open system" that we call "reality", how Superman actually reacts to kryptonite and how the universe created itself are concepts whose "truth" we can approach only asymptotically, via the scientific method.

"One answer is that it has a Creator, and that its Creator must be eternal, or else the creator of the universe would himself need a creator, who would also need a creator (in a never ending chain of creators, as mentioned in the Gulen article)"

Well, that's a very old argument (originally concocted by Aristotle and copied by so many people, including Thomas Aquinas, who claimed it as his own). Meanwhile, though, I'm surprised that anyone still uses such a silly argument, since it has been "shot down" so many times! Thus, it uses the principle of causality (that everything has a cause) to prove that some thing (God) doesn't have a cause. Those of with our heads still screwed on say: "Say what?!"

"This thread is not about whether God exists or not, but about if God exists, who created God."

Well, as I mentioned in an earlier post, there is the possibility [extremely remote, with a probability of about 1 chance in 10^500, i.e., in chance in 100000000… (to a total of 500 zeros!)] that the universe created a god (out of total nothingness).

"And the answer is very simple: nobody. He is Eternal and He is the source of all creation."

Well, maybe that answer is "very simple" for you, but for me, it's so silly that I don't know how you can state it with a straight face. Or are you just joking?!

[doppelgänger]

Originally Posted by michel

I hate this sort of discussion; can you, doppelgänger, prove to me that the Earth is sperical ? (without resorting to second hand say so's and apparently evinced pictures from space).

"Prove" it? No. First, that the Earth is spherical is an interpretation that depends on context and perspecitve. But even if it could be reduced to an empirical proposition (by agreeing on the parameters and measurements that make something "spherical"), it is still inductive in nature. If we have a common understanding of "spherical," the most I can do is demonstrate that the Earth is almost definitely spherical.

[Cordoba]

Originally Posted by zoro

"And the answer is very simple: nobody. He is Eternal and He is the source of all creation."

Well, maybe that answer is "very simple" for you, but for me, it's so silly that I don't know how you can state it with a straight face. Or are you just joking?!

No I'm not joking.

That we don't understand what eternity means does not prove it doesn't exist

In the same way that we don't understand the concept of infinity in algebra, doesn't mean that in the function y = 1/x when x tends to 0, y tends to infinity is wrong

Same here. The Creator of this universe is Eternal. We may not understand what eternity means but that doesn't change anything.

As for cause and effect, the same laws of The Creator don't apply, like for example a software engineer who works on a robot's software is not constrained (does not function) with the software he designed.

[MysticSang'ha]

Originally Posted by doppelgänger

It is true that God was created at the same time and by the same person as our universe was created. But I'm still not a theist.

Perfect explanation of my own thoughts on the matter.



Peace,
Mystic

[doppelgänger]

Originally Posted by MysticSang'ha

Perfect explanation of my own thoughts on the matter.



Peace,
Mystic

I notice your posts almost always resonate with me.

[zoro]

Cordoba: The errors you make in your logical anaylysis (the fallacy of "argumentum ad ignorantium"), your apparent failure to appreciate the inadequacies of any argument by analogy and the impossibility of proving any "existence" via logic, your apparent unawareness of the scientific method lead,... lead me to suggest that you re-examine the widsom of your compatriot Ptah-Hotep, from 4400 years ago:

"If thou wouldest be a wise man, and one sitting in council…, apply thine heart unto perfection. Silence is more profitable unto thee than abundance of speech... It is a foolish thing to speak on every kind of work, for he that disputeth thy words shall put them unto proof."

[zoro]