Anti-Zionism? (Israel, Jewish, heaven, Orthodox, reconstructionist)

[almifkhar]

alright ssrt, i'll play your game for a minute

Ten questions to the Zionists
Zionist/Nazi Pact
Nazi Support of Zionism
True Torah Jews Against Zionism
Anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews Attacked in Synagogue, Jerusalem 26 April, 2005
lets have jews themselves tell you all about it.

also i noticed how you evaded the symbolism issue and called it freedom, etc. i stongly suggest you do some homework on that issue alone.

yes racism is everywhere this we agree on, however, when nelson mandella slams israel for being an apartheid state, that should tell you something.

quote "the land of the free, who ever told you that is your enemy" did it ever occur to you that maybe the reason for the "hey all jews come to israel" bit was to kill off all jews? i mean lets sit back and think about all the ways they got folks to go there. lets see, the kidnappings, the bribing with money, the false flag conflicts in the middle east "problem reaction soultion" sceme to goat folks into moving. false flag scams such as look how bad they those arabs are treating the brothers and sisters, yet yemen for example actually doctors papers so their jews can find work in saudi so these jewish men can feed their families (yemen of course is a poor country) who remain in yemen. and those iranian jews who the zionists claim are treated so badly, yet they the iranian jews have spoken out to the world and said they refuse to move to israel.

but more importantly the thing i wanted you to think about. the whole point of god having the jewish people relocated to the 4 corners of the earth was so the people would not be killed off as a whole, right? so obviously jews have an real enemy. an enemy who hates god, and this would be the same enemy who don't want your messiah to come back. now you go back and do your homework on that symbolism i showed in your supreme court building, and the folks behind it. you will find info from jews, christians and musilms alike that say this is the enemy. and then you sit back and think real hard about how this same group of people created this thing called zionism, and the modern state of israel, and did all kinds of dirty scams to get jewish people to live there, and how this same group of people plays divide and conquer between jewish, muslim, and christian folks alike, and then you ask yourself honestly are they your friends? this should take you a good year or two to research and ponder. you can then send me a pm and let me know if i am right or wrong.

[almifkhar]

further ssrt
muslims and christians also speak of how there is an enemy who is trying to destroy us and them and wipe us and them too off the map. now considering muslims and christians follow the same basic teachings you as a jew do, and we all share the same (we call them prophets) as you do. this in itself should be a red flag that there is an enemy outthere who is seeking to destroy us all. don't think for on minute that i am a hater of jews, cause that is not the case at all. i want peace and justice just like the next guy. the whole point of my post was to show another side of zionism. a deeper and more sinister side of it. brother, you have to follow the money with these things, as with the religious teachings. just because we are taught something is right, and everyone believes it is right, don't make it right. i have found that much in life is a lie. and we are lied to for sinister reasons. check up on those rothschilds, and remember that old bibical saying, "it is easier for a camel to walk through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to make it to heaven." there is a reason for this. look, you got your king sauds, bush's, and sharons of the world and they are all part and parcel of the same group. however, they are not our friends, and they are not out for our best interests and you need to become aware of this.

[ssrt]

Originally Posted by almifkhar

Ten questions to the Zionists

Ah! Excellent! I see you found a site with no political bias whatsoever ("Jews not Zionists", that sounds quite impartial) which does not cite a single source for its claims. You're doing a great job convincing me.

Originally Posted by almifkhar

Zionist/Nazi Pact

Another great website citing no sources for its quotes and claims! Not only that, but if you had taken the time to check out the rest of that website, you would have seen that it is very simply a conspiracy theory website, which features very reliable articles about how 9/11 and the London Bombings are actually inside jobs, and the emerging New World Order.

Apparently, you have very little understanding of what I mean by "reliable" sources.

Nazi Support of Zionism

Although this website is a little better (I say a little better because it is called "True Torah Jews Against Zionism" - another objective source - but at least this one cites sources for its claims), it is still basically a load of rubbish. I'll give you some examples:

Theodor Herzl (1860-1904), the founder of modern Zionism, recognized that anti-Semitism would further his cause, the creation of a separate state for Jews. To solve the Jewish Question, he maintained “we must, above all, make it an international political issue.”[1]Herzl wrote that Zionism offered the world a welcome “final solution of the Jewish question.”[2]In his “Diaries”, page 19, Herzl stated “Anti-Semites will become our surest friends, anti-Semitic countries our allies.”

- That's common sense. Nothing sonspiratorial about it.

The Transfer Agreement (which promoted the emigration of German Jews to Palestine) implemented in 1933 and abandoned at the beginning of WWII is an important example of the cooperation between Hitler’s Germany and international Zionism. [11] Through this agreement, Hitler’s Third Reich did more than any other government during the 1930’s to support Jewish development in Palestine and further the Zionist goals.

...

The Zionist so-called “World Jewish Congress” declared war on the country of Germany,[12] [13] knowing that it would affect their Jewish brothers residing in that country who would be left without protection. When others tried to help them escape to other countries, the Zionist movement took actions which caused those countries to lock their doors to Jewish immigration (read more in the books, “Perfidy” and “Min Hametzer”). As a result of the Zionist influence five ships of Jewish refugees from Germany arriving in the United States were turned back to the gas chambers.

Note that the particularly controversial assertions being made have no sources to back them up ("As a result of the Zionist influence five ships of Jewish refugees from Germany arriving in the United States were turned back to the gas chambers", "Through this agreement, Hitler’s Third Reich did more than any other government during the 1930’s to support Jewish development in Palestine and further the Zionist goals.").

I would also like to point out that this supposed Zionist influence that forced the Jews to either remain in Europe or emigrate to Palestine is nothing short of idiotic, to anyone who knows about the White Paper of 1939, in which the British blocked Jewish emigration to Palestine. This blows two holes in their argument: First that the Zionists had an unnatural amount of influence over foreign countries, and second that they had an interest to send Jews back to Europe rather than accepting them elsewhere.

On August 31, 1949, Ben Gurion stated: “Although we have realized our dream of creating a Jewish State, we are only at the beginning. There are still only 900,000 Jews in Israel, whereas the majority of the Jewish people still remains abroad. Our future task is to bring all the Jews to Israel.”


Of the two and a half million Jews seeking refuge from the Nazis between 1935 and 1943, less than 9% went to settle in Palestine. The vast majority, 75%, went to the Soviet Union. In the mid-70’s, more people emigrated out of ‘Israel’ than came in. The only surges of immigration to the Zionist state have occurred during anti-Semitic threats and persecution in foreign countries.[15]

Here, again, they conveniatly ommit the fact that Jews did not emigrate to Israel because they were NOT ALLOWED TO, by Brittain.

I think I've made my point. This site pulls things out of context and attempts to use them to portray Israel and "Zionists" negatively - which should have been clear from the start, considering the name of the website.

Originally Posted by almifkhar

True Torah Jews Against Zionism

Another biased website that I don't plan to go through. Find some objective sources and I'll think about responding.

Originally Posted by almifkhar

Anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews Attacked in Synagogue, Jerusalem 26 April, 2005

[/quote]

That's nice, find a single instance in which religious Jews are abused, and use it to stereotype an entire group. Normally, we call that racism - but since you're dealing with Zionists, I guess its ok.

Originally Posted by almifkhar

also i noticed how you evaded the symbolism issue and called it freedom, etc. i stongly suggest you do some homework on that issue alone.

There is nothing to evade. Just like we dont prevent the construction of mosques and churches because they aren't Jewish, we don't prevent the use of non-Jewish symbols. It's not a big deal, it's a load of conspiracy babble.

Originally Posted by almifkhar

yes racism is everywhere this we agree on, however, when nelson mandella slams israel for being an apartheid state, that should tell you something.

Nelson Mandela has not said such a thing, to my knowledge. Certainly he has been supportive of Palestinian statehood. He also said: "I cannot conceive of Israel withdrawing if Arab states do not recognize Israel, within secure borders. "

Originally Posted by almifkhar

quote "the land of the free, who ever told you that is your enemy" did it ever occur to you that maybe the reason for the "hey all jews come to israel" bit was to kill off all jews?

No, because that's just idiotic.

Originally Posted by almifkhar

i mean lets sit back and think about all the ways they got folks to go there. lets see, the kidnappings, the bribing with money, the false flag conflicts in the middle east "problem reaction soultion" sceme to goat folks into moving. false flag scams such as look how bad they those arabs are treating the brothers and sisters, yet yemen for example actually doctors papers so their jews can find work in saudi so these jewish men can feed their families (yemen of course is a poor country) who remain in yemen. and those iranian jews who the zionists claim are treated so badly, yet they the iranian jews have spoken out to the world and said they refuse to move to israel.

Oh brother, not another one... You are pathetic.

My family moved to Palestine five generations before Israel was created. Because of pogroms in Iran. Want to blame that on the Zionists? YOu can lie and lie and lie until you're blue in the face, but the Mizrahi Jews who were expelled from their homes and forced to flee - like me and hundreds of thousands of other Israelis - know the REAL truth. You can shove your lies where the sun don't shine.

Originally Posted by almifkhar

but more importantly the thing i wanted you to think about. the whole point of god having the jewish people relocated to the 4 corners of the earth was so the people would not be killed off as a whole, right? so obviously jews have an real enemy. an enemy who hates god, and this would be the same enemy who don't want your messiah to come back. now you go back and do your homework on that symbolism i showed in your supreme court building, and the folks behind it. you will find info from jews, christians and musilms alike that say this is the enemy. and then you sit back and think real hard about how this same group of people created this thing called zionism, and the modern state of israel, and did all kinds of dirty scams to get jewish people to live there, and how this same group of people plays divide and conquer between jewish, muslim, and christian folks alike, and then you ask yourself honestly are they your friends? this should take you a good year or two to research and ponder. you can then send me a pm and let me know if i am right or wrong.

You are wrong, and you are ridiculous. You have no understanding of Judaism whatsoever if you believe the highlighted section above.

[almifkhar]

ssrt,
i gotta say it saddens me to say that you responded excatly how i thought you would respond. i supose ingorance is bliss. i also love how you say i am wrong after what? five minutes, if that? i have been studying religion for the past 10 years, and my understanding of the subject greater than you may think. for example, you label yourself as a secular jew. there is a problem with this because you can only be one or the other. to be a jew, means that you adhear to the faith of judaism. to be secular means that you do not belong to a religous order. yet i'm ridiculous and have no understanding, how rich! like i said jr. do your homework and get back to me in 1 to 2 years and let me know then if i am right or wrong, until then, have a swell life.

[ssrt]

Originally Posted by almifkhar

ssrt,
i gotta say it saddens me to say that you responded excatly how i thought you would respond. i supose ingorance is bliss. i also love how you say i am wrong after what? five minutes, if that?

Isn't it great how you ignore everything I said, including the logical processes, and move to an ad hominem attack calling me ignorant? I suppose it's to be expected, since your claims had no substance to begin with.

Originally Posted by almifkhar

i have been studying religion for the past 10 years, and my understanding of the subject greater than you may think.

From ad hominem to ad verecundiam. Two logical fallacies in a single paragraph, well done.

Originally Posted by almifkhar

for example, you label yourself as a secular jew. there is a problem with this because you can only be one or the other. to be a jew, means that you adhear to the faith of judaism. to be secular means that you do not belong to a religous order.

Being a Jew has not been just a religion since the time of the second temple when an Jewish national identity emerged. It is amazing that there is a huge amount of debate among Jewish scholars as to what exactly Judaism is - and yet you feel that you are qualified enough to tell me I am not a Jew.

In fact, one could very convincingly argue the case that Judaism has never been a religion - or certainly it was a nation before it became a religion. At Sinai, the Israelites became a nation. Jewish Law continues to maintain that anyone born to a Jewish mother is a Jew, regardless of his religious practices. This is quite atypical for a religion - and of course, shows once again that you know far less about Judaism than you purport to.

To millions of people, Judaism means much more than adhering to the Jewish religion. It means the shared ancestry and religion, it means the shared language, it means the same culture - and today, finally, after over 2,000 years (though some like you will attempt to rob us of this) - it means a shared homeland.

I see the Jews as a nation, not as a religious group, and I am certainly not alone in my belief.

Originally Posted by almifkhar

yet i'm ridiculous and have no understanding, how rich! like i said jr. do your homework and get back to me in 1 to 2 years and let me know then if i am right or wrong, until then, have a swell life.

You are wrong, because your arguments are either non-existant, backed up by unreliable sources, or fall apart as soon as they are examined briefly. Have a nice life.

[Nimrauko]

Originally Posted by Doktormartini

Hey, I know there are quite a few Jews on here, but I was wondering if any of the Jews here are actually against Zionism and the illegal occupation of Palestine? I'm not a Jew, but I am! There are plenty of Jews, even orthodox, that are against Zionism!

Thanks for you replies!

I am anti-zionist. I am Orthodox with a slight Reform theme, but I still believe we are in exile and will not gain possession of the Holy Land until the Moshiach returns. G-d put us in Exile, and G-d will bring us out. Not the U.N, not a single man on this earth. I can already tell all my Jewish Brethren here will hate me for saying it, but its my view. Not saying mine is the view for all, but unlike some of them, I am open minded enough to listen and not hate because a view is different from mine.