When is a martyr not a martyr? (Jesus, crucified, beliefs)

[gnostic]

I always thought martyrs are those who people dying for the cause of religion, are usually those who had no choice on the matter, because they succumb to a stronger forces. The martyrs take a passive stance.

Some of the Islamic clerics have different spin to martyrdom, but I don't know if this is the common prevalance among general populace of Muslims. These clerics have far more aggressive idea on martyrdom, where they must become warriors, thus kill people before they kill themselves for, I would guess jihad.

To me, this doesn't sound like martyr at all. It sound more like asking people to murder and suicide.

Recruiting people for martyrs is also not not martyr; it sounds more opportunistic stupidity.

A Sydney-born Muslim cleric named Sheik Feiz Mohammed making DVDs, which is being sold here in Australia and oversea, and which is titled the Death Series. It show him ranting in front of camera against Jews, calling upon Muslim parents that it is their duty to offer their children in martyrdom.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=94224
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sto...80-661,00.html

The DVDs were found all the way in London, and it was the British police who brought the DVDs to our attention.

This is the same sheik who runs the Global Islamic Youth Centre in Sydney, and who had previously said (in 2005) that women in skimpy clothes deserved to be raped. Although, he had apologise for his comment, but his excuse is that he was misunderstood. Will he use the same excuse this time (of being misunderstood), for these hate-filled DVDs?

I find that it is strange that many Muslims who are forced to retract what they have said, always use that their messages were "misunderstood".

A senior cleric, also from Sydney, Sheik Taj Aldin Alhilali, the self-proclaimed imran of Australia, had in national tv interview in Egypt, said that Australians are liars, and since the ancestors were convicts when they arrived in Australia, Muslims have more rights than those ancestors to make Australia their homes. His excuse had always being misunderstood, taken out of context, and having trouble with English language.

Most Australian Muslims have expressed disgust with Alhilali's comments, and other previous comments over the years, but it is the Sydney's Lebanese-Muslim communities are his biggest defenders, because they think of him as a hero. It would seem that Islam would continue to get bad publicity as long as Alhilali and Feiz Mohammed remains spokemen for Islam.

[Comprehend]

I am surprised there aren't more Muslims who condemn such violent, hateful racist garbage. You would think that Muslims would want to make it very clear that sort of nonsense isn't part of their religion.

[Bishka]

A matyr is not a matyr when they have planned it from the beginning. That's just pure pride. When someone is confronted and stands up for their beliefs and dies for it, then they are a matyr. Not someone who says 'pity me' or blows up buses. They are not matyrs!

[gnostic]

Originally Posted by comprehend

I am surprised there aren't more Muslims who condemn such violent, hateful racist garbage.

The Australian Muslims have condemned. I've only just seen some of the interviews among Muslims that have condemn these DVDs.

I saw some of the footages in the news, yesterday. It just take time to have a more general response in the following day. They have repsonse, seemingly unanimously.

I could not find it in today's newspapers, so I think it will be available in tomorrow's papers.

What I have problem with Muslims is that they can't fire such clerics.

[gnostic]

Originally Posted by beckysoup

A matyr is not a matyr when they have planned it from the beginning. That's just pure pride. When someone is confronted and stands up for their beliefs and dies for it, then they are a matyr. Not someone who says 'pity me' or blows up buses. They are not matyrs!

That's what I am thinking too. How can you recruit people to become martyrs? You can't, because that is not the definition of the word "martyr".

[Mister Emu]

By definition a martyr is one who dies for not renouncing their beliefs.

That is very open-ended, ie. if it is your belief that God commands you to suicidaly blow up buildings, then by definition you would be a martyr.

[Comprehend]

Originally Posted by gnostic

The Australian Muslims have condemned. I've only just seen some of the interviews among Muslims that have condemn these DVDs.

I saw some of the footages in the news, yesterday. It just take time to have a more general response in the following day. They have repsonse, seemingly unanimously.

I could not find it in today's newspapers, so I think it will be available in tomorrow's papers.

What I have problem with Muslims is that they can't fire such clerics.

that is great to hear. I agree. why aren't clerics like that booted out of the mosques?

[Searching]

Originally Posted by beckysoup61

A matyr is not a matyr when they have planned it from the beginning. That's just pure pride.

Jesus knew His purpose and what was going to happen to Him long before He was crucified.
There was no pride involved - instead, there was more humility than you or I could ever comprehend.

[Searching]

Originally Posted by Mister Emu

By definition a martyr is one who dies for not renouncing their beliefs.

That is very open-ended, ie. if it is your belief that God commands you to suicidaly blow up buildings, then by definition you would be a martyr.

Really?
I always understood it had to be someone else doing the killing for it to be called martyrdom?

[Mister Emu]

1.a person who willingly suffers death rather than renounce his or her religion.

dictionary.com

According to definition, you need not be put to death to be a martyr.