Zeitoun Virgin Mary sightings (testimony, churches, paranormal, recall, faith)

[Guitar's Cry]

Michel's "Lourde's, What Do You All Think" thread recalled to mind something I've puzzled over.

Anyone ever heard of the Zeitoun Virgin Mary sightings? I came across this on the web, not too long ago, and it interested me enough to research it.

http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/R...n/Zeitoun.html

What do you think? Real? A hoax? Mass-hallucination with some camera trickery?

I have the sneaking suspicion it's an internet hoax. For one, information is rather limited despite the amount of people claimed to have seen the apparition. And the information given is pretty much the same on all the sites I've visited, with little in the way of sceptical analysis. Even Wikipedia offers little!

Anyone have better information? Interesting ideas?

[James the Persian]

Originally Posted by Guitar's Cry

Michel's "Lourde's, What Do You All Think" thread recalled to mind something I've puzzled over.

Anyone ever heard of the Zeitoun Virgin Mary sightings? I came across this on the web, not too long ago, and it interested me enough to research it.

http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/R...n/Zeitoun.html

What do you think? Real? A hoax? Mass-hallucination with some camera trickery?

I have the sneaking suspicion it's an internet hoax. For one, information is rather limited despite the amount of people claimed to have seen the apparition. And the information given is pretty much the same on all the sites I've visited, with little in the way of sceptical analysis. Even Wikipedia offers little!

Anyone have better information? Interesting ideas?

Zeitoun is not an internet hoax. There were huge numbers of witnesses, mostly Coptic but some from other churches (including mine). I've no idea why you'd think it was a hoax and it's very well documented. The only explanation that I can come up with is that you want reams of information like you might get if the Vatican investigated an apparition. Eastern Christians simply don't do that (neither we nor the OOs which the Copts are) and you won't ever find such investigations. In part his is because the Church never sees such things as more than personal.

The reason that you're probably not finding much skeptical analysis is that most of this stuff comes from the west and most westerners seem to have a hard enough time working out that we exist (and ours is the second largest church on the planet) let alone the OOs. Face it. Westerners often think that Rome is the be all and end all of pre-Reformation Christianity and are unaware of anything much that happens east of western Europe.

James

[Guitar's Cry]

Originally Posted by JamesThePersian

Zeitoun is not an internet hoax. There were huge numbers of witnesses, mostly Coptic but some from other churches (including mine). I've no idea why you'd think it was a hoax and it's very well documented. The only explanation that I can come up with is that you want reams of information like you might get if the Vatican investigated an apparition. Eastern Christians simply don't do that (neither we nor the OOs which the Copts are) and you won't ever find such investigations. In part his is because the Church never sees such things as more than personal.

The reason that you're probably not finding much skeptical analysis is that most of this stuff comes from the west and most westerners seem to have a hard enough time working out that we exist (and ours is the second largest church on the planet) let alone the OOs. Face it. Westerners often think that Rome is the be all and end all of pre-Reformation Christianity and are unaware of anything much that happens east of western Europe.

James

Thanks for your response!

The reason why I thought it was a hoax was because I'd never heard of it until recently and usually stuff like this is splattered all over the internet. I figured that a long-term sighting (three years) like this, with millions of people witnessing it would have produced reams of information with people from all faiths (both east and west and south and north) interested.

I mean, something like this is enough to challenge one's faith, so of course people who aren't Eastern Orthodox are going to be interested and challenge it to see if it's real (me included). I also would have thought the scientific community would have something to say about it. Especially since this happened with regularity over three years and the only pictures I've found were the four on the site I provided and no video footage (despite the claim it was aired on Egyptian TV). Yes, I've only researched online, but I'm still surprised there isn't more about this - and that I had never heard about it until a little while ago.

Sorry for being so skeptical for something that perhaps means a lot to you. Being not wholly Christian and seeing something like this does seriously make me think.

[Willamena]

But... but... if you read it on the Internet, it must be true! (I love that line.)

It is always surprising to the individual that in this, the Information Age, with our televisions and plasticine anchor people, there is anything in the world that an individual would find to be of any significant magnitude that they wouldn't be advised about. But the amount of information we recieve is actually miniscule.

It doesn't really surprise me that this story would be ignored in the West. Virgin Mary sightings are, for many people, right up there with UFO sightings.

[Faint]

Originally Posted by Guitar's Cry

Michel's "Lourde's, What Do You All Think" thread recalled to mind something I've puzzled over.

Anyone ever heard of the Zeitoun Virgin Mary sightings? I came across this on the web, not too long ago, and it interested me enough to research it.

http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/R...n/Zeitoun.html

What do you think? Real? A hoax? Mass-hallucination with some camera trickery?

I have the sneaking suspicion it's an internet hoax. For one, information is rather limited despite the amount of people claimed to have seen the apparition. And the information given is pretty much the same on all the sites I've visited, with little in the way of sceptical analysis. Even Wikipedia offers little!

Anyone have better information? Interesting ideas?

It's nonsense. Consider David Hume's quote: "No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish."

This is not to say that large masses of people do not believe they've witnessed a miracle...but as we all know (or should know) belief isn't enough to establish reality, and human minds are extremely imaginative.

[Guitar's Cry]

Originally Posted by Willamena

But... but... if you read it on the Internet, it must be true! (I love that line.)

It is always surprising to the individual that in this, the Information Age, with our televisions and plasticine anchor people, there is anything in the world that an individual would find to be of any significant magnitude that they wouldn't be advised about. But the amount of information we recieve is actually miniscule.

It doesn't really surprise me that this story would be ignored in the West. Virgin Mary sightings are, for many people, right up there with UFO sightings.

Lol, I love that line too! Much like, "It was on TV, it's gotta be true!"

That we actually recieve little information is true. For me, it was surprising because that's the kind of thing I am interested in. I mean, I've always been a paranormal nut! I spent more time in my college library pouring over books on ghosts, UFOs, cryptozoology, and such, and I never came across this. But you and James may be right: it's an Eastern incident that may not have received much Western attention.

Maybe it's just me, but how could it be largely ignored by all except those in the East when it went on for three years? Especially by those interested in ghostly phenomena?

[Guitar's Cry]

Originally Posted by Faint

It's nonsense. Consider David Hume's quote: "No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavors to establish."

This is not to say that large masses of people do not believe they've witnessed a miracle...but as we all know (or should know) belief isn't enough to establish reality, and human minds are extremely imaginative.

I agree! Which is one reason why I'm so sceptical...

But those pictures can't be ignored. At least not by me. Yes, they could have been faked. And yes, it's still possible that the entire thing was staged (sorry, James, but I can't ignore those possibilities. I really don't mean to criticize something that may mean a lot to you). But despite these possibilities, the photos are still evidence of something, even if only the fradulent workings of a charlatan.

I mean, what if?

[Faint]

Originally Posted by Guitar's Cry

I agree! Which is one reason why I'm so sceptical...

But those pictures can't be ignored. At least not by me. Yes, they could have been faked. And yes, it's still possible that the entire thing was staged (sorry, James, but I can't ignore those possibilities. I really don't mean to criticize something that may mean a lot to you). But despite these possibilities, the photos are still evidence of something, even if only the fradulent workings of a charlatan.

I mean, what if?

Unfortunately I'm unable to access the site for some reason, so I can't see the photos (can you copy/post one??). But I'll tell you this...I'm a photographer with a good working knowledge of Photoshop...I myself can magically make fat girls look skinny, or guys with heavy acne look like the "after" version of a Clearasil ad. I can creat sunlight where there was no sunlight before, or make someone's skin a nice shade of plaid. Any thing you want to create visually...in moving pictures or still-frame...can be manufactured.