LDS- Dark skin is a curse? (salvation, hell, doctrine, church) - Page 3

jonny · #21 12-10-2006, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott1

Just as awful.... I guess I'll just wait until a LDS member can educate me about this in a definitive manner.

That comment wasn't from my point of view on the subject. It was from the point of view of those who believe the teaching that dark skin and curse are related. Note that I started the sentence with the word "if." Since we are discussing what some people believed at a point (and not just LDS members - the mark of Cain was a common belief in Christianity and is still believed by many people), I think it's important to clarify what they believed the curse was.

jonny · #22 12-10-2006, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beckysoup61

None of us ever said we weren't ever racist. We'll all admit we've had racists-sounding and racist doctrine in a manner-of-speaking, but that shouldn't matter now.

We don't believe that or feel that way anymore. We welcome people of all colors and ethnics groups. That should be what matters.

The vast majority of the members of the church today were not members of the church when these beliefs were common. Since 1978, the year that most members of the church believe that the church did away with any remaining racist undertones in the church practices, the membership has grown from about 1 million to over 13 million. I'd say that almost 90% (taking births & deaths into account) of the members of the church were not around when these beliefs were common. It's a difficult subject because most of us were not around at the time and are grateful we were not around.

Scott1 · #23 12-10-2006, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonny

That comment wasn't from my point of view on the subject. It was from the point of view of those who believe the teaching that dark skin and curse are related. Note that I started the sentence with the word "if."

I appreciate your efforts.... I've learned all I need to on the subject.

nutshell · #24 12-11-2006, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott1

I appreciate your efforts.... I've learned all I need to on the subject.

And what was it you needed to learn, Scott?

Comprehend · #25 12-11-2006, 02:41 AM

Scott, it doesn't really serve any purpose to pick on people who don't know the doctrine. Did this make you feel better to get them to say something stupid? That isn't a particularly honest or productive method IMO. You ought to be interested in the truth, not embarrassing people who don't know when to say they don't know the answer. (which I might suggest next time ya'll don't know the answer).

1. A group of people were cursed in the Book of Mormon.
2. The curse was NOT the dark skin, the curse was losing the favor of God.
3. The LDS church has never taught racism, this is ridiculous and I would challenge Johnny (or whoever said that) to show me where that was ever our doctrine.

Here is one good explanation of our doctrine on the subject. I can give more if you like.

Quote:

John M. Lundquist and Stephen D. Ricks, eds., By Study and Also by Faith: Essays in Honor of Hugh W. Nibley on the Occasion of His Eightieth Birthday, 27 March 1990, 2 vols., 2:, p.62

Quote:

One of the most troubling occurrences in the Book of Mormon, for some modern readers, is the cursing of the Lamanites. It took place after the separation of the peoples when the cultural divide widened. Nephi apparently ruled over all the brothers when they first landed in America, but, chafing under his government, the Lamanites made an attempt on his life, forcing Nephi to flee with his people into the wilderness. The Lord explained that, in consequence of the brothers' refusal to follow Nephi, they would be cut off. The curse of blackness came because the Lamanites "hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint" (2 Nephi 5:21). The purpose of the sign accompanying the curse, the dark skin, was to prevent the Nephites from mixing with the Lamanites; under the curse they would not be enticing. That idea troubles us because it makes skin color divisive in a way that we today dislike. But in a later incident, we learn more about the inner meaning of the curse. In the time of Alma a group of dissident Nephites called Amlicites joined the Lamanites in an attack on the Nephites. The Amlicites marked their foreheads with red paint to distinguish friends from enemies in battle. The marking led Mormon (presumably the editor of Alma's records) to comment on the curse. Mormon explained the reason why the Lord did not wish the Lamanites and Nephites to mix. It was not because of their contrasting skin colors. The curse was pronounced "that they might not mix and believe in incorrect traditions which would prove their destruction" (Alma 3:8). At issue was the story of their founding, deeply embedded as it was in Lamanite culture. The danger was not a mixture of races or skin colors but a mixture of false traditions with true ones. Mormon said the very identity of the Nephites lay in their acceptance of the true history of origins.

By the way, God did this in the Bible as well. Were you not aware of that?

Genesis 4:15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

25 And he said, Cursed [be] Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.

Gen 28:1
1 ¶ AND Isaac called Jacob, and blessed him, and charged him, and said unto him, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan.

Lev 18:3
3 After the doings of the land of Egypt, wherein ye dwelt, shall ye not do: and after the doings of the land of Canaan, whither I bring you, shall ye not do: neither shall ye walk in their ordinances.

cardero · #26 12-11-2006, 02:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by beckysoup61

None of us ever said we weren't ever racist. We'll all admit we've had racists-sounding and racist doctrine in a manner-of-speaking, but that shouldn't matter now. It was clarified by our Prophets that, what it sounded like racism, was not.

We don't believe that or feel that way anymore. We welcome people of all colors and ethnics groups. That should be what matters.

Why would God not notify the prophets earlier before there was even a chance that racism could become an issue among some Christian doctrines and religions?

Comprehend · #27 12-11-2006, 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cardero

Why would God not notify the prophets earlier before there was even a chance that racism could become an issue among some Christian doctrines and religions?

and why didn't somebody notify God that all of that condoning of slavery and using slavery to accomplish his works in the Bible (see Joseph sold into egypt etc etc) would look really bad later...

darkpenguin · #28 12-11-2006, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scott1

..... but it has at one time in the past?

so what if it did in the past? i'm sure your religion is guilty of alot worse, the point being whats done is done and cant be undone, I'm sure black people have suffered alot worse at the hands of the white man than being 'cursed', i cant understand why you are so miffed about this!