A question of tollerance (Jesus Christ, rituals, rejecting, Earth, gospel)

[MaddLlama]

Originally Posted by PureX

There are a lot of Christians these days who I think are worshipping their religion, and their scriptures, rather than the spirit that their religion and scriptures were intended to foster and support, just as the Pharisees did. Jesus was all about the spirit of God's love and forgiveness. In fact, he was the embodiment of God's love and forgiveness on Earth. But because the religionists were so caught up in worshipping their religion, instead of the spirit that their religion was intended to serve, they did not recognize Jesus as the Christ (God's love made flesh) even as Christ stood right in front of them. And they actually plotted to murder Jesus to protect their religion and their religiosity FROM the spirit of God!

Having made an idol of their religion and their scriptures, they became the enemy of the very Christ they claimed to be awaiting, and they murdered him when he came among them. And these "Pharisees" are still among us, and still worshipping their religion and their scriptures, and still trying to murder the spirit of God's love on Earth, just as Christ is still among us embodying that spirit in human form.

I know a lot of people like that.

[PureX]

Originally Posted by MaddLlama

I know a lot of people like that.

One of the things I like about the bible, and particularly the NT, is that it's a "living story". As I read the story of Jesus' life and death, I can see how this story is still being played out, all around me, and in some ways, even inside of me. There are times in my life when I've found myself playing the role of Pilot, trying to wash my hands of and run away from someone who's wrongly being abused because it's too 'inconvenient' for me to stand up for them. There are times in my life when I've found myself playing the role of Judas, and wanting to force a conclusion to a scenario that I don't understand, just so I can finally see what it's all about. There are times in my life when I've found myself playing the role of Thomas, and having to have "proof" that other people are who and what they say they are, so that I could trust them. And on and on. Seems to me I've played every role in the story at some time or other, and will again in the future. And that's why I find the story so valuable.

So I don't point out the "Pharisism" in others without also admitting that I have been guilty of it, myself, and may again in the future. I find that the real value of the story of Jesus isn't in that it happened once upon a time, and so means this or that, but that it's happening now, in us and all around us, and we can learn some really important stuff about ourselves from it if we are willing to look for our own role in the story. And seeing this, can use Jesus' story to grow and change who we are.

Turning Jesus' story into a religious idol, and treating it as if it were a sacred and sacrosanct 'object', makes it useless to us. The story can't live in the present tense unless we let it be a STORY. And unless we are willing to see ourselves in it.

[Scuba Pete]

Originally Posted by PureX

And unless we are willing to see ourselves in it.

Amen Pure-X!

I have said it before: the Scriptures are a blog of man trying to find his God. No more and no less. In it we can see man blame God for his own mistakes as well as misunderstand just what God wanted. Jesus came and fulfilled the law, reminded us that there really are only two laws that count and immediately we see those Christians start down the path of "Rules and Regulations".

Tolerance was practiced by Jesus throughout his ministry and he was CONSTANTLY criticized for it. Today, much of the same thing occurs:

Matthew 11:16 "To what can I compare this generation? They are like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling out to others:
17 " 'We played the flute for you,
and you did not dance;
we sang a dirge
and you did not mourn.' 18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, 'He has a demon.' 19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." ' But wisdom is proved right by her actions." NIV

[*Paul*]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

You might want to read through the following thread and tell me if you still feel that way:

One-on-one (Stimpy vs Katzpur): Mormonism takes people away from God.

Incidentally, all of the scriptures you mentioned are good examples of some of the things we can teach others. But in none of them does Jesus advocate our telling our brothers and sisters that they're going to Hell. Is that honestly what you believe the gist of Christ's message to be?

I see nothing in Stimpletons debate with you that contradicts what I previously said, she uses scripture and your documents and a sermon from J.S and offers an obvious interpretation of them. I don't get your point. I was a part of the debate that led to that one on one before I kept losing my posts.

I would never tell my brother or sister they are going to hell.

[Sunstone]

Originally Posted by doppelgänger

But what if those beliefs are about "gods" who are telling me to kill or convert the non-believers?

I have very little tolerance for gods that tell people to kill or forcibly convert the non believers. It's very tacky of a god to act like a petty minded jerk, and I strongly suspect such gods don't even bother to exist outside the heads of the petty minded jerks that follow them.

[RevOxley_501]

Originally Posted by Stimpleton

Is it possible for someone to be truly tollerant of all religious beliefs?

If not, why?

If so, why?

Are you tollerant of all religious beliefs or are there some that just grate on you or seem ludicrous??

my opinion is this:

if you have to use the word "Tolerate", as if you are doing a favor to someone, i think you may have a tolerance issue. I dont have to tolerate religions, just republicans and general mindsets---but religion is something i will gladly accept of another. Because i believe in ever persons right to it---now in the case of religions that i deem "cults" or misguiding---i will glady accept their right to do so, however, once someone makes an attempt, or sometimes if a group does so, to proselyze me--then i am surely going to use all the logical ammunition i have that defeats that religious system. I can do so respectfully and generally come out with a new friend at the end of it all. The opponent generally realizing that i sure aint "golden" and im too smart for whatever tricks they try to pull. and me realizing that im just banging my head against a wall of blank stares and bad excuses.

am i rambling?

[*Paul*]

Originally Posted by NetDoc

Matthew 12:7 If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the innocent. NIV

Words of derision hold very little room for any mercy.

Yes but mercy should have been part of their religious practice, it was not a new commandment he gave them but pointed them to their religious scriptures and told them to learn what they mean:

Ps 37v21: The wicked borroweth, and payeth not again: but the righteous sheweth mercy, and giveth.
Ps 109v16: Because that he remembered not to shew mercy, but persecuted the poor and needy man, that he might even slay the broken in heart.
Prov 3v3: Let not mercy and truth forsake thee: bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart:
Prov 21v21: He that followeth after righteousness and mercy findeth life, righteousness, and honour.
Hosea 6v6: For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.

[*Paul*]

[quote]

Originally Posted by PureX

There are a lot of Christians these days who I think are worshipping their religion, and their scriptures, rather than the spirit that their religion and scriptures were intended to foster and support, just as the Pharisees did.

What makes you say this? In my experience when someone has took the time to learn and memorize God's word as per:
Ps 119v11: Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
are often called pharisees just because they take the word of God seriously, there is no basis for this at all. Pharisees were religious hypocrites who added their own commands to the word of God and put the people under a heavy bondage. There are people like this today but not all Christian fundamentalists are like this. It is also ofent assumed or implied that because someone believes in Justification by faith alone that they are devoid of good works, this is ludicrous too, they are simply not trying to eran their salvation on that basis, ignored are the many fantastic works of people who believed this with all their heart and people alive today also who believe this.

Jesus was all about the spirit of God's love and forgiveness. In fact, he was the embodiment of God's love and forgiveness on Earth.

Yes but he also spoke a lot about the consequences of not recieving that love and forgiveness, people seem to try to ignore these things but he was straight to the point, it is deliberate ignorance to say that Jesus never spoke of judgement and hell and damnation. He, the embodiment of God's love warned people about it, and we who claim to have that same love in our hearts must do the same also and not let people think that God will not judge them for their sins if they are not righteously cleansed by the blood of Christ.

But because the religionists were so caught up in worshipping their religion, instead of the spirit that their religion was intended to serve, they did not recognize Jesus as the Christ (God's love made flesh) even as Christ stood right in front of them. And they actually plotted to murder Jesus to protect their religion and their religiosity FROM the spirit of God!

Those religionists did just that, they did not recognise Jesus as God manifest in the flesh in all His fullness.

Having made an idol of their religion and their scriptures, they became the enemy of the very Christ they claimed to be awaiting, and they murdered him when he came among them. And these "Pharisees" are still among us, and still worshipping their religion and their scriptures, and still trying to murder the spirit of God's love on Earth, just as Christ is still among us embodying that spirit in human form.

And yet if they had understood the scriptures they would not have done this. I know of no one who worships their scriptures, we love them but only because they point us to Jesus the only Christ, it is they which speak of Him and in them are the words of life everlasting to all who believe, in them is cotained the gospel by which you saved if you believe it. In them is comfort and the assurance of our being with Jesus and the victory of Love over hatred, Light over darkness, Christ over antichrist The father of lights over the father of lies. In them are contained our doctrines to keep us from deception and error and to perfect and furnish us unto good works.
But if you do not know Jesus and are born again by His Spirit then all the knowledge of the scriptures are nothing, no Christian I know will deny that.
Jn 5v39: Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

[PureX]

Originally Posted by *Paul*

What makes you say this? In my experience when someone has took the time to learn and memorize God's word as per:
Ps 119v11: Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.
are often called pharisees just because they take the word of God seriously, there is no basis for this at all. Pharisees were religious hypocrites who added their own commands to the word of God and put the people under a heavy bondage. There are people like this today but not all Christian fundamentalists are like this. It is also often assumed or implied that because someone believes in Justification by faith alone that they are devoid of good works, this is ludicrous too, they are simply not trying to earn their salvation on that basis, ignored are the many fantastic works of people who believed this with all their heart and people alive today also who believe this.

Well, for one thing, it's the assumption that the scriptures are "the words of God". This assigns the authority of God to religious texts written by religious men, which they don't rightly possess. And in so doing makes of them a false idol, as it gives scripture in effect the same credence as God, himself. It was this blind worship of religious scripture that caused the Pharisees to lose sight of the spirit of God in each other and in the world around them. I'm not saying that everyone who makes an idol of scripture will lose their realization of the spirit of God in the world around them, but it is a definite 'red flag', I think.

Also, the idea that one must claim a specific religious doctrine or dogma to be acceptable by God is likewise a similar 'red flag' in that it places that religious doctrine/dogma between man and God, as a sort of gate-keeper. This is another form of false idolization in that it raises the religious doctrines of religious men to a status even above God, as it dictates who God will and will not accept. Again, not everyone who believes this has lost sight of the spirit of God's love and forgiveness in the world around them, but it is another strong indicator of such. It was exactly this love of religiosity, expressed as righteous elitism, that led the Pharisees to completely miss the fact that their religion was supposed to SERVE the spirit of God in the world, not diminish and bury it under doctrines and dogmas and excuses for writing other people out of God's favor.

Originally Posted by *Paul*

Yes, but he (Jesus) also spoke a lot about the consequences of not receiving that love and forgiveness, ...

Who refused God's love and forgiveness? I can't think of anyone in Jesus' story that refused him when he loved and forgave them except perhaps the very people who murdered him. And he forgave them, anyway, even knowing that they couldn't understand or accept his forgiveness at that moment.

Originally Posted by *Paul*

... people seem to try to ignore these things but he was straight to the point, it is deliberate ignorance to say that Jesus never spoke of judgement and hell and damnation. He, the embodiment of God's love warned people about it, and we who claim to have that same love in our hearts must do the same also and not let people think that God will not judge them for their sins if they are not righteously cleansed by the blood of Christ.

What he was warning about, however, was what will happen to us if we don't accept God's love and forgiveness acting in and through us to heal and save us from ourselves. He was NOT warning us about what would happen if we didn't accept some particular religious doctrine or other, or if we didn't pretend that God wrote the bible. Yet this is how the modern day Pharisees interpret it. They think Jesus is saying that if we don't worship religious scriptures written by men as if they were written by God, then we will be sent to hell by God for this. They interpret Jesus as saying that if we don't worship their religious doctrines and dogmas as if they were the absolute truth of God, then God will send us to hell for denying him. But these interpretations basically place their religious texts and their religious doctrines as equivalent to God, and as expressions of God's own mind and heart. They have elevated their religion and it's trappings to the status of God, and in so doing have made false idols (in my opinion) of them. And then they try to use these false idols to dismiss and deny other people's relationship with God, and even to justify their own lust for divine vengeance against the "non-believers". This is the exact same mind-set as those who murdered Jesus.

Originally Posted by *Paul*

And yet if they had understood the scriptures they would not have done this.

I agree. But they didn't understand them because they had made false idols of them. They couldn't see that their religious texts were written by men, about mankind's experience of God. And instead they took the texts literally and dogmatically, and missed the truth in them. Just as they still do, today.

Originally Posted by *Paul*

I know of no one who worships their scriptures, we love them but only because they point us to Jesus the only Christ, it is they which speak of Him and in them are the words of life everlasting to all who believe, in them is contained the gospel by which you saved if you believe it.

No one is saved by the gospels. We are saved by trusting in God's love as it acts within and through us. No one is saved by believing in any religion. They are saved by trusting in God's love as it acts within and through them. No one is saved by using the name of Jesus. We are saved by doing what Jesus did, and allowing ourselves to become the expressions of God's love on Earth. We don't have to read the bible to recognize God's love acting in and through us to heal us and save us from ourselves. Love is it's own truth. We don't have to have even heard of Jesus or know of the ideal of Christ to recognize the healing power of love as it acts in and through us to each other. Religionists keep trying to make their religion into God's "stand-in", and the more they try to do this the more they become an obstacle to God's spirit as it moves in and through us. I hate to say it but it often seems to me that the more religious people become, they more blind they become to God's love, and the less willing they are to trust in the power of that love in us. This isn't always the case, of course, but I do think it's often the case with people who become obsessed with the trappings of their religion.

Originally Posted by *Paul*

In them (the gospels) is comfort and the assurance of our being with Jesus and the victory of Love over hatred, Light over darkness, Christ over antichrist The father of lights over the father of lies. In them are contained our doctrines to keep us from deception and error and to perfect and furnish us unto good works.

In them is also the temptation to make false idols of the words, and to miss their true meaning. After all, those words were written by men, and they are not perfect, or perfectly clear, or even perfectly true. It's important to understand and remember this.

[doppelgänger]

Originally Posted by Sunstone

I have very little tolerance for gods that tell people to kill or forcibly convert the non believers. It's very tacky of a god to act like a petty minded jerk, and I strongly suspect such gods don't even bother to exist outside the heads of the petty minded jerks that follow them.

But who is to say that "God" isn't telling them to do just that if we have to be tolerant of any belief unless it can be disproven (which is impossible)?

Is it "bigotry" to apply any rational critique of knowledge if someone might get upset that it doesn't go their way?