Why did Jesus have to suffer so badly for our sins? (Jesus Christ, ritual)

[Tiberius]

Originally Posted by FerventGodSeeker

For being such "rubbish", you certainly haven't refuted it. Your argument that it doesn't specify which God makes no sense coming from an atheist...you don't believe in ANY God...you have no chance in your worldview of a positive afterlife, at least theists (by and large) have some possibility.

What, so atheists aren't allowed to speak about God at all?

Pascal's Wager is presetned as a reason to believe in God. I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask, "Which God?"

Your use of Biblical quotes about God judging works completely ignore the passages concerning the importance of belief as well. Both are important.

So we have some passages that say that only works are important, and other passages that say only faith is important, and other passages that say both are important and other passages that say none are important because God already knows who is going to heaven and who is going to hell, and we can't change it.

Good thing the Bible is clear on the topic, eh?

Even if Christianity isn't the truth and your atheistic worldview with no afterlife is, Christians lose nothing in the final analysis...they live happy, fulfilled lives, help and love others, and have peace when they die. In your view, you and I both end up in the same place, regardless of of how we've lived our lives...in the ground, unconscious and rotting. How is that superior to the Christian worldview?

What about all those people who devote their lives to religion and miss out on a loving and fulfilling relationship? What about those people who refuse medical treatments because their religion says it is wrong? Have they lost nothing if God doesn't exist?

And I don't see what being superior has to do with anything. it has nothing to do with superiority. it has to do with truth. A religious belief that showers you with riches if you believe is superior as well, but that doesn't ,mean it is true.

In any case, this is getting off topic....

[uumckk16]

Originally Posted by dawny0826

We were created perfect but were given free will. Adam and Eve had a choice to make in the Garden of Eden and chose to disobey. And at that moment, sin...death...was unleashed.

Read the OT of the Bible...it's really amazing...time after time...God fulfills His promises to His children and time after time, His children disobey and fail to trust Him.

God was clear on what He expected of us but we (man) didn't get it.

So, He became flesh for our benefit.

Sorry...but how does this not contradict omniscience? If God knew right from the beginning that Adam and Eve would fall, and that the people would "disobey and fail to trust Him" "time after time," why didn't he become flesh right then? Then absolutely everyone in history would have had a chance to be saved, since according to a literal interpretation, we all came from Adam and Eve.

[sojourner]

Originally Posted by Tiberius

It's a guilt trip.

I guarantee you that if you give a gift to someone and that gift is something that cost you a lot, then that person will feel obligated to take it.

Likewise, telling people that Jesus/God made such a huge sacrifice for them is a guilt trip designed to make people feel obligated to believe.

Nevermind we don't actually get this "gift" until AFTER we die.....

Guarantee? You can't even guarantee that you feel obligated to take it...

We have the gift of grace here and now.

[sojourner]

Originally Posted by uumckk16

Sorry...but how does this not contradict omniscience? If God knew right from the beginning that Adam and Eve would fall, and that the people would "disobey and fail to trust Him" "time after time," why didn't he become flesh right then? Then absolutely everyone in history would have had a chance to be saved, since according to a literal interpretation, we all came from Adam and Eve.

God has always saved God's people. Jesus came in the fullness of time to complete the human creation.

[sojourner]

If you agree that God has the ability to know and DO anything, then he allowed it. Otherwise he could have intervened.

That's exactly the taunt used by the thief on the cross: "If you're the Son of God, then save yourself...and us!" God saved the thief anyway.

Would you kill your own child if God asked you to?

Abraham was ready to sacrifice Isaac...God saved Isaac.

If you want to be like God, here's a brief cheat sheet to get you started:
Be jealous AND hold grudges...seek to avenge the "crimes" of those who offended you by punishing their kids and grandkids. ("I the LORD your God am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sins of the fathers...")

"The Lord is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and rich in love. The Lord is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made. All you have made will praise you, O Lord." (Ps. 145:8-10)

"I will not carry out my fierce anger, nor will I turn and devastate Ephraim. For I am God, and not man -- the Holy One among you. I will not come in wrath." (Hos. 11:9)

"Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven." (Matt. 5:44-45

"Your Father in Heaven in not willing that any of these little ones should be lost." (Matt. 18:14)

"I did not come to judge the world, but to save it." (Jn. 15:16)

"Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life to all men." (Rom. 5:18)

"For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross." (Col. 1:19-20)

"For that very reason I was shown mercy so that, in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who believe on him and receive eternal life." (I Tim. 1:16)

"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." (II Pet. 3:9)

"Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boeast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil, but rejoices in the truth. It always protects, always hopes, always preserves. Love never fails." (I Cor. 13:4-8)

I could keep going, but you get the idea...

Advocate your followers to promote the rape of their own daughters. (Genesis 19 "Please, brothers, do not be wicked. Look, I have two daughters who are virgins. I am ready to send them out to you, for you to treat as you please...)

Kill lots of innocent people. (Exodus 12 - And at midnight Yahweh struck down all the first-born in Egypt from the first-born of Pharaoh, heir to his throne, to the first-born of the prisoner in the dungeon)

Recommend religious intolerance and have your followers kill witches. (Exodus 22 - You will not suffer a witch to live.)

Be homophobic. (Leviticus 20 - The man who has intercourse with a man in the same way as with a woman: they have done a hateful thing together; they will be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads)

This discloses a gross misunderstanding of Biblical interpretation and ignorance with regard to cultural anthropology. We have to look a little deeper than what is written on the page in order to understand what's going on in these examples.

[logician]

"Don't you think that God could have come up with a better solution than that to save our sins? "

As an atheist, I don't believe there is a god, but why do we need "saving" from our sins? Certainly billions of people exist and have existed w/o the need for a sacrificial lamb.

[Tiberius]

Originally Posted by sojourner

Guarantee? You can't even guarantee that you feel obligated to take it...

Because I don't think it's been offered. You do. That's why you've accepted it. I can't accept something I don't think I've been offered.

We have the gift of grace here and now.

You BELIEVE we have the gift, so you repay this gift with love and obedience. I do not believe we have it, so I don't repay it.

And I was referring to the gift of a life for eternity in Heaven. We don't get that until after we die.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Faint

I would imagine the weight of the humanity's sins... would have been far heavier than the relatively simple crucifixion could balance out. This isn't to say that being crucified is something to scoff at...it's still a horrible form of torture after all. But considering that other people were also being crucified at the time, it is a safe bet that many of them first endured torture worse than what Christ went through.

That's a very interesting statement. Excuse me for not reading through the entire 10-page thread before I answer. Some other Latter-day Saint may have already said what I'm going to say.

I believe that we are the only Christian denomination that believes that Christ's atoning sacrifice actually started in Gethsemane and that it was there that He actually suffered more than He did on the cross. We believe it was in Gethsemane that He actually took upon Himself the weight of our sins and accepted our guilt. This is the time when His suffering was so great that His sweat was like blood. This is also the only time when His Father sent an angel to support Him. There was no similar support when He hung on the cross. Obviously, as you said, death by crucifixion was horrible beyond words, but others died by that means as well.

God did not set Christ up to suffer WORSE than any other human being...I would say that he probably got off too easy considering the various creative forms of torment an all-powerful God could come up with. If a God wanted to really demonstrate HIS own suffering (or condemn His Son if you prefer) he would have done better to set Jesus up like Prometheus where his liver is daily devoured by vultures for thousands of years. Or a bound Loki where a snake drips venom in his eyes until the end of the world. Think about it...if you want to make amends for the sins/crimes/horrors of human kind...one little crucifixion just won't cut it. You need to think much bigger.

Which is what we Latter-day Saints do.

Of course, this is not addressing the more important issue, which is that the God of the Bible seems to enjoy torment and bloodshed. If you have ultimate power...you could easily just forgive humanity its flaws without torturing anyone. Christ's fate would have been nothing more than a brutal and sadistic act of symbolism.

But if you're God, you must be constant and reliable. If you state in advance that there will be consequences for disobedience, you don't just look the other way when you need to follow through and administer the punishment.

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by uumckk16

Sorry...but how does this not contradict omniscience? If God knew right from the beginning that Adam and Eve would fall, and that the people would "disobey and fail to trust Him" "time after time," why didn't he become flesh right then? Then absolutely everyone in history would have had a chance to be saved, since according to a literal interpretation, we all came from Adam and Eve.

Absolutely everyone does have that chance. There was no problem with God's timing.

I'm not sure exactly what Dawn meant when she said, "God was clear on what He expected of us but we (man) didn't get it.

So, He became flesh for our benefit." That does almost sound like Jesus' sacrifice was an afterthought. But the scriptures refer to Jesus as "the lamb slain from the foundation of the world," which would indicate that God knew long before Adam and Eve ever lived that someone would need to atone for their sins.

[Comprehend]

Originally Posted by wanderer085

"Don't you think that God could have come up with a better solution than that to save our sins? "

As an atheist, I don't believe there is a god, but why do we need "saving" from our sins? Certainly billions of people exist and have existed w/o the need for a sacrificial lamb.

hmmm... translation of wanderer's statement --- I don't believe in God, but if there was one, I think I am smarter than Him.

I would say you are a bit overconfident wanderer. but that is just my opinion.