Jesus, Krishna and Buddha were the same person (ritual, church)

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by michel

I have never heard the term 'avatar' used in that way before - but,as I said above, I am quite prepared to believe that; a "Teacher" who incarnated at various times.............

Hi Michel, namaste.

That is actually the original meaning of the word avatar. When role playing and online interactions became popular someone astutely chose that word to signify the "image" that we present to the rest of the world. It makes sense. We can adopt different avatars but we are still the same. Similarly, Vishnu can incarnate as different avatars over time but Vishnu is still Vishnu.

As for whether Vishnu incarnated as the Buddha and Jesus, etc., that's for others to decide.


Another religious term that has been taken over by modern technology is "icon."

[Hema]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Ab-so-LOOT-lee as Sylvester Stallone would say. Baha`i's use the phrase Manifestation of God in just that sense, I believe the Hindu term is 'avatar', right? The avatar and the Godhead are the same thing in one sense, though the avatar is not truly the Godhead in another sense. Am I right?

Regards,
Scott

Correct - the Hindu term is Avatar. Hinduism states that God is manifested in every aspect of creation. In fact, he is even manifested in each one of us. He is still one but yet he exists in all things. Yes, the avatar and Godhead are one. Each one of us is Jeeva Atman or an Individual Soul. God is the Param Atman or Super Soul. This relationship can be likened to a drop of water taken from the ocean. The drop of water is like me and you - representing the individual soul and God is like the ocean. The drop of water has the same properties as water from the ocean...just like the part in the Bible which says that God created us in his image and likeness. The pupose of avatars is described in Bhagvad Gita when Shri Krishna said that when unrighteousness is on the ascent and righteousness is on the descent, he will manifest himself on earth to restore the order. The time period we are in is called Kalyug - a dark age (where unrighteousness is rampant). Hinduism states that the last Avatar in this age will be called Kalki Avatar. I also believe that Jesus is an Avatar of God. I know that Christians say that Jesus will return just as Hindus say that Kalki Avatar will come. I think that they are one and the same. Just as you are one man but you can be called father, brother, son, uncle etc. and take on different roles accordingly.

[lilithu]

Originally Posted by Hema

Correct - the Hindu term is Avatar. Hinduism states that God is manifested in every aspect of creation. In fact, he is even manifested in each one of us. He is still one but yet he exists in all things. Yes, the avatar and Godhead are one. Each one of us is Jeeva Atman or an Individual Soul. God is the Param Atman or Super Soul.

Hema, I totally agree about jiiva atman and Param Atman. That is how I view our relationship with the Divine.

However, I'm unclear on why you bring this into the discussion about avatars. My understanding is that an avatar is not just the manifestation of God in creation, but the incarnation of God. Wouldn't you say that there is a difference between Krishna and little ol' us? Or would you say that we are all avatars of God?

Originally Posted by Hema

This relationship can be likened to a drop of water taken from the ocean. The drop of water is like me and you - representing the individual soul and God is like the ocean. The drop of water has the same properties as water from the ocean...

That is true. But once the drop of water is returned to the ocean it no longer exists as that drop of water. Other drops of water may be created that contain the same water molecules as that drop once contained but it is not the same drop. The concept of that drop existing at all is only due to its separation from the ocean. Hence, ultimately, there is no individual soul - that's just a temporary thing - only Atman.

[akshar]

I must disagree here saying that i think that jeses was not an avatar of god. Only a very great great man who was very close to god, and all those miracles he learned those powers from rishis (sages) in the Himalayas. Buddha was an avatar of Vishnu bhagawan (god) Yet i do not understand how an avatar of hinduism made a sect out of it, well not a sect but some kind of off shoot.

[Hema]

Originally Posted by lilithu

However, I'm unclear on why you bring this into the discussion about avatars. My understanding is that an avatar is not just the manifestation of God in creation, but the incarnation of God. Wouldn't you say that there is a difference between Krishna and little ol' us? Or would you say that we are all avatars of God?.

I discussed the relationship of the Jeeva Atman and Param Atman because I was trying to clarify Uncle Popeyesays' question about whether the Avatars and Godhead are one. So, I was just saying that we are all connected to God - in spirit. So, in essence we are all the same on the inside. Yes, I do believe that an Avatar is an incarnation of God, but I the same time I will say that God has manifested because God does not become limited to the Avatar he has manifested into. He exists as an avatar but he is also limitless, he does not stop existing in all other aspects of creation. In terms of the spirit level, we and Krishna are the same, because the absolute truth or Brahman is one. If you are talking about the AVATAR of Krishna, that is God in a physical body, living like us, I would say that we are different from the Avatar. This brings me to your question on whether we are all avatars of God. No, we are not all avatars. Although we all have God's spirit manifested within us. An Avatar to me is a powerful manifestation of God - one who is put on earth to reinforce righteousness. Many of us do not have the power to do that. However, Swami Vivekananda said that we are all potentially divine, only to awake the divinity within. Isn't this how the Buddha began? He began as an ordinary person who tapped into his divinity and became an evolved soul. If you ask whether we have potential to become avatars, I honestly don't know. I think an avatar is put on earth especially to reinforce Dharma or righteousness living. Even when Shri Krishna was a little boy, his mother asked to look inside his mouth because he had just put something in his mouth and was being mischievously playful. His mother was astonished to see the universe in his mouth - the planets, galaxies etc.

Originally Posted by lilithu

That is true. But once the drop of water is returned to the ocean it no longer exists as that drop of water. Other drops of water may be created that contain the same water molecules as that drop once contained but it is not the same drop. The concept of that drop existing at all is only due to its separation from the ocean. Hence, ultimately, there is no individual soul - that's just a temporary thing - only Atman.

I agree. The Jeeva Atman is temporary because we are confined to our bodies. However, when we have worked out our karma and we are spiritually evolved, we will become one with God. So yes, we become one with the ocean. There is only Brahman - the Absolute Truth.

[Hema]

Originally Posted by akshar

I must disagree here saying that i think that jeses was not an avatar of god. Only a very great great man who was very close to god, and all those miracles he learned those powers from rishis (sages) in the Himalayas. Buddha was an avatar of Vishnu bhagawan (god) Yet i do not understand how an avatar of hinduism made a sect out of it, well not a sect but some kind of off shoot.

I agree with you that Jesus received Vedic teaching from Rishis in India. I'm not sure about their names or how to spell them, but when my dad pronounces it, it sounds like Lomas Rishi and Agashtha Muni. That part of the Bible is called the Aquarian Gospel but many Christians don't know about it. The book really does exist though. My dad saw it in a Rastafarian's shop once on a vacation to Barbados. Smartie Pants didn't walk with enough money to buy it. Also Jesus' ability to walk on water and perfom miracles etc. was a result of evolved yogic powers. Curious though, why do you say he wasn't an avatar of God? I know that Sai Baba's devotees pray to Jesus as well, they are sort of all-embracing.

[akshar]

He was a great man i agree 100% Even there own followers say he was the son of god/prophet. That for me cannot be true as god is a celibate, god has no real children, as god for me in neither male or female, no god is to me.

[Hema]

Originally Posted by akshar

He was a great man i agree 100% Even there own followers say he was the son of god/prophet. That for me cannot be true as god is a celibate, god has no real children, as god for me in neither male or female, no god is to me.

The way, I see it - The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one. Just like in the Hindu Trinity - Bramha, Vishnu and Shiva are separate energies of God but are all interconnected and are from one Supreme Being. Or, like the Deities in Hinduism are many but are energies of one God. For eg. people refer to Bramha as a separate being but Bramha (Not Brahma) is really that aspect of God which is dominant in the creative process or - God is referred to Bramha when he is creating. Shri Ram as an avatar did have children - Lav and Kush, but I have heard that the part about Lav and Kush was not in the original Valmiki Ramayan so I don't know if it's true. However, I agree with your thinking - God is neither male nor female. However, I believe that there is a female energy - Shakti or power and a male energy - Shiva or the cosmic consciousness.