is the qu'ran the infallable word of god (tradition, translation)

[fullyveiled muslimah]

Originally Posted by Genna

Moses was a prophet, do you believe that Moses was sinless? The patriarch King David was also considered a prophet, was he sinless when he committed adultery with bathsheba? Both David (Dawud) and Moses are mentioned in the Quran, David in the Quran is considered to be a prophet according to muslims. So was he a sinless prophet?

Both Dawood (David) and Musa (Moses) were sinless prophets. Adultery is a major sin and therefore uncharacteristic of a prophet of Allah who is supposedly leading people to the straight path. Muslims simply dismiss these defamations of the various prophets of Allah as a lie. Now as to who made up these lies, I have no idea really.

[ayani]

Originally Posted by The Truth

If the details were in Quran we would have a huge Quran with thousands and thousands of pages. There are details in the hadiths which is no need to be in the Quran.

ok. but why not just have the Quran be those few thousand pages? if the Quran is the final word of God to mankind one would expect it to be long and detailed. why did not Allah simply put these important details in the Quran, instead of leaving them up to humans?

i asked about Mohammed being sinless because as the Hadith are the sayings and actions of Mohammed and as many Muslims hold them in great esteem, it would be possible that Mohammed may have said and done some things that were mistaken. if the Prophet was perfect in matters of prophecy but not always in everyday life, well- where does the prophecy end and the every day life begin? are not all of his actions and words by nature related to the prophetic, as his birth into the world was to transmit the word of God?

[fullyveiled muslimah]

Originally Posted by gracie

ok. but why not just have the Quran be those few thousand pages? if the Quran is the final word of God to mankind one would expect it to be long and detailed. why did not Allah simply put these important details in the Quran, instead of leaving them up to humans?

i asked about Mohammed being sinless because as the Hadith are the sayings and actions of Mohammed and as many Muslims hold them in great esteem, it would be possible that Mohammed may have said and done some things that were mistaken. if the Prophet was perfect in matters of prophecy but not always in everyday life, well- where does the prophecy end and the every day life begin? are not all of his actions and words by nature related to the prophetic, as his birth into the world was to transmit the word of God?

If the information contained in hadith were all throughout the Quran then it would contradict itself and this is why. A few posts ago I quoted an ayat commanding us to follow Allah and His Prophet. If Quran had all that information in it, why would we need the prophet? What purpose would it serve to follow him? And then follow what, we already have all the information we could possibly need in the Quran. Muhammad would have served no purpose, just an old man with a book (authu billah). And with all that info in Quran we still would not have had a practical example to actually do these commands that we are urged to do.

And then think about it; would you read a possible 500,000 + page book? Who is gonna go through that book? When would we have time to read it and when would we finish? Plus, Quran is also designed for memorization in order to help preserve it. Who could have memorised such a book? In Allah's infinite wisdom He broke up this information in parts so that it will be easier to access and reference. Giving this hadith information to Muhammad is ok to do, because what good is it gonna do if at the source the info is gonna be messed up? So obviously Allah knows that Muhammad will not mess it up, because He inspired Muhammad not to say anything that he thinks up himself, but to follow the inspiration on a matter when it comes to him.

[ayani]

Originally Posted by fullyveiled muslimah

If the information contained in hadith were all throughout the Quran then it would contradict itself and this is why. A few posts ago I quoted an ayat commanding us to follow Allah and His Prophet.

really? so the Quran and Hadith contradict one another? how? in what ways?

why then follow these Hadith? why were they included in the Muslim cannon if they contradict what is in the Quran?

[Genna]

Originally Posted by fullyveiled muslimah

Both Dawood (David) and Musa (Moses) were sinless prophets. Adultery is a major sin and therefore uncharacteristic of a prophet of Allah who is supposedly leading people to the straight path. Muslims simply dismiss these defamations of the various prophets of Allah as a lie. Now as to who made up these lies, I have no idea really.

Where in the Quran does it say that prophets are sinless? I know that al-jinn 72:27,28 says:

Only to a messenger that He chooses, does He reveal from the past and the future, specific news. This is to ascertain that they have delivered their Lord's messages. He is fully aware of what they have. He has counted the numbers of all things.

Perhaps I am missing a key point, but it seems to say that God protects his messengers only so that their messages are given unadulterated, how does this imply sinlessness?

[fullyveiled muslimah]

Originally Posted by gracie

really? so the Quran and Hadith contradict one another? how? in what ways?

why then follow these Hadith? why were they included in the Muslim cannon if they contradict what is in the Quran?

No no no, I meant if the info in hadith were in quran then the Quranic ayat that i posted earlier would have not made sense. Quran says follow Allah and His prophet. If there were no hadith then how to follow the prophet?

[ayani]

Originally Posted by fullyveiled muslimah

No no no, I meant if the info in hadith were in quran then the Quranic ayat that i posted earlier would have not made sense. Quran says follow Allah and His prophet. If there were no hadith then how to follow the prophet?

oh, ok. sorry!

so is every example of Mohammed to be followed? you mentioned that while his prophet-hood may have been perfect (which is dabatable when one takes into account Mohammad's traditional momentary lapse of prophetic perfection while reciting the Sura al-Najm). as i said, where would his prophet-hood end and daily life begin if he was born into this world to be a prophet?

[universal_brother]

Originally Posted by Moon Woman

Understanding of the concept of abrogation provides some enlightenment as to the treatment of various controversies surrounding some earlier/later verses which seem to contradict.

http://www.submission.org/abrogation.html
.....
The abrogation of Quranic verses, arguably the greatest lie against the Quran, was originally invented during the fourth century A.H. (late 10th century A.D.) by some Muslim scholars notably Ahmed Bin Ishaq Al-Dinary (died 318 A.H.), Mohamad Bin Bahr Al-Asbahany (died 322 A.H.), Hebat Allah Bin Salamah (died 410 A.H.) and Mohamad Bin Mousa Al-Hazmy (died 548 A.H.), whose book about Al-Nasekh and Al-Mansoukh is regarded as one of the leading references in the subject.

This concept invented originally by these scholars, claims that there are some verses in the Quran that have been abrogated and invalidated by other verses!
.....
Although the concept was originally invented by Muslim scholars as a result of their poor understanding of the Quran, yet it has been widely exploited by non-Muslim writers to tarnish the perfection and divinity of the book.
.....

Although it can be said that the common aspect shared by the two groups is their poor understanding of the Quran, yet it can also be added that in the case of the non-Muslim writers, and particularly those who do not speak Arabic, we often find many of their claims for contradictions to be a product of their acquisition of corrupted and misleading translations of the Quran.
Both of these types of false claims can be dealt with in the light of the Quran. It can be demonstrated that these claims are no more than cases of poor understanding of the book.
.....
Perhaps the major reason is not connected to the Quran at all but to the ‘hadith’.
.....
.....
The heart of the matter is directly connected to the following verse:
"Why do they not study the Quran carefully? If it were from a source other than God, they would have detected within it numerous contradictions." 4:82
This verse confirms that anything that contains contradictions cannot be from God, and since the hadith contains numerous contradictions, as shown, it cannot be from God. But the hadith advocates claim that the hadith was inspired by God and that the hadith Al-Qudsy is God’s own words spoken to Muhammad! If that is so, how could they explain the contradictions in hadith? How could it be from God when it is full of contradictions? According to 4:82 nothing that contains contradictions can be from God.
To wiggle out of this tricky situation, the hadith advocates devised the concept of the abrogation of Quranic verses.
The plan was as such: If the Quran can be shown to contain contradictory verses, yet no one will dispute that it is from God, then the hadith with its contradictions can also be described to be inspired by God !!!
Quite a sly plot except for one minor detail;

THE QURAN CONTAINS NO CONTRADICTIONS!

http://www.submission.org/abrogation.html