is the qu'ran the infallable word of god (tradition, translation)

[universal_brother]

These interpretations within these parameters make the Quran flexible, not fallible.

[ayani]

Originally Posted by The Truth

Just because some people happen to be Muslims so they must know by default everything about Islam?

It's normal because we are not scholars but when we produce evidence from the Quran and Sunnah so one of us must be right and the other is wrong definitely.

ok. please help me understand this.

if the Quran is a book with which one needs to be careful when interpreting and which at times needs learned men to interpret so as to keep foolish people's agendas out of the picture, how can it be perfect? how can anyone, when faced with something which is truly perfect, deny the thing? and if the perfection of the thing is hidden from some, can it still be said to be *absolutely* perfect?

and again, as Allah wills some people to not accept the message of the Quran, that must mean that there are some people who will never understand the Quran, no matter what, as God has ordained it to be so. why would this be? if the Quran is the final word of God for all, and if God desires for all people to accept Islam, why would He make it impossible for some people to understand the Quran?

i'm not asking you to discern the mind of God. i'm asking for an Islamic theological take on the issue.

[fullyveiled muslimah]

Originally Posted by Snowbear

If the Quran is infallible, then why do the muslim sects disagree on the interpretations?

"Muslims" tend to disagree about the interpretation of Quran, among other things because some of us have a hard time accepting what Islam says about certain issues. Depending on our culture or society we grew up with, some things in Islam are unpalatable. When this happens some muslims enter into dangerous territory. Instead of submitting to whatever Quran and hadith have to say on any given matter, they decide within themselves that it cannot be so and that there must be another way to interpret things. This is where you find different little things like "jihad" and "idrib" supposedly meaning all these different things. Indeed the words themselves do have multiple meanings, but in context they have only the acceptable meaning. An acceptable meaning is any meaning deemed correct by the prophet(saw). The great scholars of the past made sure to archive all these rulings and decisions, knowledge and information about Quran and hadith.

So when a person or group of people decide that these accepted interpretations of Quran and hadith simply can't be applicable to them, they create a sect. The main body of muslims can't stop this, as people will formulate opinions no matter what. However what we can and have done is to keep the original information in pristine form, so that the standard is always available and does not get muddled throughout all of this debate. These debates between muslims over this and that are really pointless because after all is said and done, the Quran still says what it says, the ahadith still say what they say, the prophet still practiced Islam the way it was supposed to be.

So actually the infallibility of Quran would be exposed if ever it could be proven that the actual book itself was changable. Alas, it isn't. The book itself is clear to all, but a misunderstanding about some things is understandable provided that one is willing to be corrected.

[ayani]

Originally Posted by fullyveiled muslimah

The book itself is clear to all, but a misunderstanding about some things is understandable provided that one is willing to be corrected.

again, i'm sorry to keep asking this but i don't feel like i'm being answered...

how can something be both understandable to all and a point of contension and debate?

[fullyveiled muslimah]

Originally Posted by gracie

ok. please help me understand this.

if the Quran is a book with which one needs to be careful when interpreting and which at times needs learned men to interpret so as to keep foolish people's agendas out of the picture, how can it be perfect? how can anyone, when faced with something which is truly perfect, deny the thing? and if the perfection of the thing is hidden from some, can it still be said to be *absolutely* perfect?

and again, as Allah wills some people to not accept the message of the Quran, that must mean that there are some people who will never understand the Quran, no matter what, as God has ordained it to be so. why would this be? if the Quran is the final word of God for all, and if God desires for all people to accept Islam, why would He make it impossible for some people to understand the Quran?

i'm not asking you to discern the mind of God. i'm asking for an Islamic theological take on the issue.

Just because the Quran is infallible, this in no way affects human opinion on a matter. Because Allah knows the nature of people, He placed certain 'stops' in the religion itself to keep the original information intact. This is enough. There is nothing more that need be done with the religion once it is ensured that people can't tamper with the original words. Just because there is a varying opinion on something doesn't render the thing unreliable nor is the thing in question discredited. It's like the clear daytime sky is blue. Just because 10 out of 100 people say its red the sky remains blue. Another 10 from the 100 say it's yellow with a hint of purple. Does any of this opinionation about the color of the sky change the color of it? Is the sky now not reliable as it supposedly lends itself to too many interpretations of its color?

Apply this simple logic to Quran and people's opinion about it. Do the varying opinions really change the original messege, particularly when Allah has put things in place that will ensure that the correct interpretations last always? Not only have these interpretations lasted, they are easily found out.

[ayani]

hmm.... but does human opinion on the matter effect the infallability of the Quran?

and its validity as a final and universal message for mankind?

[!Fluffy!]

Originally Posted by The Truth

Before i start answering this please, it's off-topic and if you want to ask more about it, so ask your question in any pervious topic which was discussing about your question or just start a new thread about it. Thanks.

Here we go ....

I didn't understand what do you excatly mean in here.

Sorry, i don't exactly understand either. I am reading a biography by an Afghan girl who talks about this, and it was confusing to me. The girls there apparently knew there will be horrible consequences if it is discovered on the wedding night they are not actually a virgin. Apparently this happened to one young bride and she was discovered beaten to death and mutilated the next day; her husband said she was not a virgin. Well after an autopsy it was discovered she was indeed a virgin but her husband admitted he was unable to complete the marriage act and so that was his way of covering up his 'shame'? The ruling authorities said it was not his fault because he was trying to protect his honor and may have been insane because of it. But I did not see any verses quoted in the Qur'an about it at all, and find the whole honor laws thing very barbaric, alien and confusing.

These answers you and fullyveiled have provided me are very honest and straightforward. You have been very patient with me and I appreciate your time and effort. I am glad now I was delayed until Sunday, this will give me a chance to mull over the links you gave me. I do not wish to divert the thread any more but will be following with interest over the weekend; if you have insight to share with me about this one question it is ok to just pm me.

Kindest regards,
moon woman

[fullyveiled muslimah]

Originally Posted by gracie

again, i'm sorry to keep asking this but i don't feel like i'm being answered...

how can something be both understandable to all and a point of contension and debate?

I think you are intertwining the level of understandability of Quran with its acceptance level. If me and another muslim read an ayat we will both understand it at whatever level our reading comprehension is at. After reading this ayat we may both have two different ideas of what it means. We spend a little time debating it until we agree to consult the given explanation of that particular ayat. After that the debate is over as the matter is settled, however one of us does not accept the given answer. The one who has not accepted the answer will continue to debate the issue, but needlessly so.

The debate does not come about until someone wishes not to accept the answers.