A change of focus (ritual, Earth, grace, choices, choice)

[michel]

I don't know whether some of the 'older' (been here longest) members will recall, but there has been a 'shift' in a situation I spoke about maybe a year ago.

Basically, what I had somehow become involved with (goodness knows why) was my habit of saying a prayer for God to Bless family members, friends etc...most of whom are now deceased.

I remember explaining that as I spoke of each person, I could visualize them in my mind's eye, but more importantly could converse with them.

The rationale behind that (as I could see it) was the fact that I was communication with their spirits/souls. I remember mentioning it here once, and asked for people's views; the validating factor (to me) was that often 'people' would give me an answer I did'nt expect from them. Another validation was that whenever I asked a 'no-no' question (about the hereafter, or maybe even God him/itself, I would get a "You ain't catching me out look from whoever I asked the question to).

I particularly remember master Vigil's thoughts which were something along the lines of "You are most likely communicating with your higher selves".

That one shook me; from that moment on, for a few weeks, I felt no "pleasure" in greeting those for whom I asked God for a blessing. Somehow, Master V's suggestion (made in all good faith) - there is no doubt about that - actually seemed to 'ruin' the spiritual even for me. It took quite some weeks for me to regain the feeling of confidence that I was actually talking to Souls. That should have been the end of the matter; back to square one, and happy again. Not quite.

I am happy, but something (somewhere - maybe a little 'inner voice') was telling me that this was something I ought not to be doing. A blessing for the person was fine, but 'talking with them' was not 'cosher' (excuse me for borrowing that term).


I now ask God to Bless, but I make no attempt to even try to converse with the individuals (even though I believe I have the ability) - just as, even though I have the ability and have had personal acceptable proof - please don't 'tut' Jay....... that I can use Numbers and palmistry to forecast emerging trends in different people's behaviour..which leads to the possibly of giving advice (ie through a process of an educated guestimate), it is possible to forecast events - on a basis of what is happening now. The future is always able to be changed by our own choices, at any one time.

Really, I suppose what this comes to is a subconscious maybe spiritual feeling that what I had been doing wasn't what God would want me to do.

Has anyone ever felt that? is there anyone who can empathise? - and lastly, to the 'proper' Christians (Catholics, Orthodox, LDS, Judaic and all the other 'Brands') members, do you believe that I have in fact been told to desist from what I was doing?
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[James the Persian]

Originally Posted by michel

Has anyone ever felt that? is there anyone who can empathise? - and lastly, to the 'proper' Christians (Catholics, Orthodox, LDS, Judaic and all the other 'Brands') members, do you believe that I have in fact been told to desist from what I was doing?

In all likelihood, yes. Whilst I do believe that the dead, especially those recongnised as saints, can by God's grace communicate with us, I do not believe it is particularly common. The usual Orthodox attitude to encountering such an experience would be to be skeptical and to use discernment - test whether the spirits are of God. We believe that God will forgive you for not accepting a genuine vision but that it is very dangerous to assume that every spiritual experience is good. Actively seeking such experiences, then, is decidedly frowned upon, and for good reason. Praying for the dead, though, (which it seems is what you are doing) is very much encouraged.

James

[michel]

Originally Posted by JamesThePersian

In all likelihood, yes. Whilst I do believe that the dead, especially those recongnised as saints, can by God's grace communicate with us, I do not believe it is particularly common. The usual Orthodox attitude to encountering such an experience would be to be skeptical and to use discernment - test whether the spirits are of God. We believe that God will forgive you for not accepting a genuine vision but that it is very dangerous to assume that every spiritual experience is good. Actively seeking such experiences, then, is decidedly frowned upon, and for good reason. Praying for the dead, though, (which it seems is what you are doing) is very much encouraged.

James

Thanks james; this gives me the opportunity to *bump* this one up.

[Halcyon]

This is just my personal opinion Mich, but i think that if the spirits were malicious you would know.
Like, they would lie to you - or mislead you. Ask you to worship them in some way, or to do something you are not comfortable with. If they were not malicious, why would God not want you chatting with them, especially if they wouldn't give away His secrets?

It seems to me that you were fine with the situation until MV planted a seed of doubt that made you analyse what was happening from a different perspective. Then it seems that the doubt remained, causing you to never really be comfortable with the experience again.

I've had plenty of gut instincts that tell me when something is wrong, but they were always from the outset, they never developed over time or after someone suggested an alternative as in your case.

[Super Universe]

Why would you have this ability and it be wrong? It is only wrong if you use it to do harm.

Nature gave you this, not entirely for a specific reason but because it is one of the things that can come from a complex system. Donavan McNabb can throw a football 40 yards and I cannot. He has his 'gifts' and I have mine, and you certainly have your own.

Use it if you wish but be careful, just because a spirit says it is your relative does not mean it truly is. Ask questions, learn, but always be in control.

I believe that it is not allowed for a departed spirit to talk with family on the earth.

This would destroy our sense of separation from the universe. But I do believe departed family members are allowed to send back a single calming letter to whoever they choose.

[michel]

Hmmmmmmm now you two have got me thinking again........

Actually, this has reminded me of a thread I had thought of; thanks for the memory "jog".

As far as this particular point is concerned, Iwas looking at it from the point of view that it was 'wrong' in Christianity...and that maybe I had had that made clear to me (subconsciously).heck, I don't know. I guess this has ramifications; I need to ask 'those who know' (like JamesTP, and Victor)..not that I didn't want your input.......thank you; I feel a bit like I am on a see saw though.

[Djamila]

I believe the dead can communicate with us, but my opinion of its circumstances is very close to what James' explained about Orthodox Christianity.

I only had two such experiences, in February of 1996. The war was falling apart very quickly, the siege had been lifted for the most part. People were walking in the streets more freely. I was getting on a tram, and I grabbed the handle to pull myself up to the first step - and I just hear my mother's voice in my head screaming "STANI!" (Stop!). It wasn't faint or vague, it was as though two real people were standing on either side of me and screaming into each ear. I was practically traumatized, really, much more than just shocked. I stumbled backwards and ran away crying because everyone was looking at me strangely (I was only 15 then).

The tram hadn't even moved yet, people were still getting on when a sniper opened fire and killed three of them - I was less than 3 meters away from it, still running.

The other, I went with my niece on Mount Trebevic, and she was just old enough to walk and talk a little. I sat on a rock and was just admiring the view and suddenly I had this sick feeling in my stomach and my head. It was just so strong, like coming across a human body or something of that nature. I turned around and snatched my niece, who was wandering around the little clearing.

I never thought of it again until New Years for the year 2000. After the parties downtown, we went to Trebevic to relax - and by this time, of course, all the minefields were marked - and the stone where I was sitting wasn't on the edge of one, it was actually in the middle of one.

So, I don't know what I'd call these things. But they're the two experiences I've had where circumstances seem to support the idea they were genuine.

[SoliDeoGloria]

I am happy, but something (somewhere - maybe a little 'inner voice') was telling me that this was something I ought not to be doing. A blessing for the person was fine, but 'talking with them' was not 'cosher' (excuse me for borrowing that term)...

Really, I suppose what this comes to is a subconscious maybe spiritual feeling that what I had been doing wasn't what God would want me to do.

Has anyone ever felt that? is there anyone who can empathise? - and lastly, to the 'proper' Christians (Catholics, Orthodox, LDS, Judaic and all the other 'Brands') members, do you believe that I have in fact been told to desist from what I was doing?

Oh boy, Mike, where do I start with this one? I don't know how much this will relate, but I will offer some personal experience and go from there.

Before I got saved (when I was 19, march 99), I was raised very secularly. My mom was into Tarot cards and psychic stuff and my dad was into all sorts of stuff. Anyways, one day when I was working at a Long John Silvers in San Diego, this homeless guy came in, gave me a couple of dollars to tell me that God would speak with me one day and told me that I couldn't tell anybody. My dumb teenage butt told the first person who asked me about it that night. For some reason, I still remember that and wonder if it has already come to pass or if it still has yet to happen or if I have ruined it. One morning after I got saved, I remember a very distinct voice that I heard as clear as day and it wasn't coming from my head while I was in the bathroom ask me what I wanted. I was still a screwed up teen at the time and am too embarrassed to reveal how I answered it here . I haven't experienced anything like that since and sometimes ponder what was really going on at the time. I could give a couple of more examples of other things but will let it go for now.

From a Biblical perspective, all one would need to do is look up the words "medium" or "divinity" in their concordance to find out what the Bible actually states about things such as what you are describing in the OP. From a personal point of view, I would advise listening to the "little inner voice" you mentioned just because it would seem to go along with what the Bible would have to say about this issue and I'll leave the "praying for blessings for the dead" issue alone for now being as how I feel it is a secondary issue. Besides that, on a personal note, Mike, you very well could be messing with something pretty dangerous there. Unfortunately, from personal experience, those "little inner voices" seem to be the hardest to listen to and follow which begs the question of why you are trying to get further advice from people here rather than the Bible or that "little inner voice"? I state that not to be mean, but ask a rhetorical question Mike.

Sincerely,
SoliDeoGloria