How can something sometimes not be eternal? (Jesus Christ, ritual, reject)

[Paraprakrti]

This question is directed toward Christians who hold the belief that souls are created but will exist perpetually from that point in time. It seems quite oxymoronic to place a time constraint on our definition of eternity, doesn't it? That the soul didn't exist eternally regressing in time but will continue to exist eternally henceforth. What a precarious concept. So once again, how is something sometimes not eternal?

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Paraprakrti

This question is directed toward Christians who hold the belief that souls are created but will exist perpetually from that point in time. It seems quite oxymoronic to place a time constraint on our definition of eternity, doesn't it? That the soul didn't exist eternally regressing in time but will continue to exist eternally henceforth. What a precarious concept. So once again, how is something sometimes not eternal?

Good question. I hope you won't mind my contributing. I am a Christian who believes our souls are eternal. However, unlike most Christians, I believe the essense of our being is co-eternal with God. According to my belief, we existed as "intelligences" (which, loosely translated, means "the light of truth") forever. We believe that God created our spirits from this light and placed each of these spirits into a physical body. From my perspective, we are in fact truly "eternal" in nature -- extending both backwards and forwards.

[Paraprakrti]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Good question. I hope you won't mind my contributing. I am a Christian who believes our souls are eternal. However, unlike most Christians, I believe the essense of our being is co-eternal with God. According to my belief, we existed as "intelligences" (which, loosely translated, means "the light of truth") forever. We believe that God created our spirits from this light and placed each of these spirits into a physical body. From my perspective, we are in fact truly "eternal" in nature -- extending both backwards and forwards.

It is interesting that you post because on another forum I am discussing a similar topic and just had a guy post under the name 'Joseph Smith'. He contributed an answer that implied souls existing before creation and I just asked him if he believes this. I guess I have my answer now.

One thing I am unsure of though is that you talk about our spirits being created from this light of truth, and then go on about how the soul is without beginning. So naturally I am having a hard time understanding how the soul is created and has no beginning. Are you saying perhaps that souls first existed in a sort of merged state (in this light) and then God gave them individualities?

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Paraprakrti

It is interesting that you post because on another forum I am discussing a similar topic and just had a guy post under the name 'Joseph Smith'. He contributed an answer that implied souls existing before creation and I just asked him if he believes this. I guess I have my answer now.

So Joseph Smith and Elvis are both alive and well, huh?

One thing I am unsure of though is that you talk about our spirits being created from this light of truth, and then go on about how the soul is without beginning. So naturally I am having a hard time understanding how the soul is created and has no beginning. Are you saying perhaps that souls first existed in a sort of merged state (in this light) and then God gave them individualities?

Sort of. I think you are on the right track, but that our terminology is causing some misunderstanding. Although we (LDS) occasionally use the words "spirit" and "soul" interchangeably, that is not technically an accurate way of expressing our doctrine. I'll see if I can clarify it.

"Intelligence" is the "light of truth" that has always existed; we believe it is co-eternal with God. From this essence, i.e. this light of truth, He formed the spirits of all things before creating them temporally. And when I say "all things," that is exactly what I mean. All of His creations have a spirit component of some sort, which is not to say that an animal's spirit is the same as a human spirit. We believe that each of us existed as an unembodied spirit prior to coming to earth and lived for billions of years in God's presence before being born. This may have been what the "Joseph Smith" poster was alluding to in his post.

When the spirit enters a physical body, the resulting entity is a "living soul." The "spirit" is essentially the life force that uniquely identifies each soul (the soul being physical body + spirit).

The living soul exists only until death, when the spirit leaves the body. The spirit, however, continues to exist as a cognizant life force until the body is resurrected, at which time it re-enters the body, which is then made perfect and immortal. From this point forward, the spirit resides within the immortal body forever.

Did I manage to shed any light on this, or just further confuse you?

[Paraprakrti]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

So Joseph Smith and Elvis are both alive and well, huh?

Sort of. I think you are on the right track, but that the terminology is getting in the way of a completely accurate understanding. Although we occasionally use the words "spirit" and "soul" interchangeably, and then throw in the concept of "intelligences," that is not technically an accurate way of expressing our doctrine. I'll see if I can clarify it.

"Intelligence" is the "light of truth" that has always existed; we believe it is co-eternal with God. From this essence, i.e. this light, He formed the spirits of all things before creating them temporally. And when I say "all things," that is exactly what I mean. All of His creations have a spirit component of some sort, which is not to say that an animal's spirit is the same as a human spirit. We believe that each of us existed as an unembodied spirit prior to coming to earth and lived for billions of years in God's presence before being born. This may have been what the "Joseph Smith" poster was alluding to in his post.

When the spirit enters a physical body, the resulting entity is a "living soul." The "spirit" is essentially the life force that uniquely identifies each living soul.

The living soul continues to exist until death, when the spirit leaves the body. The spirit, however, continues to exist as a cognizant life force until the body is resurrected, at which time it re-enters the body, which is then made perfect and immortal. From this point forward, the spirit continues to exist in an embodied state.

Did I manage to shed any light on this, or just further confuse you?

I see. So does the book of Mormon explain why souls come down to take embodiment? Also, why would souls who are liberated from the material body take shelter again in them?

This whole resurrection thing throws a wrench in my understanding, of which part is knowing that material bodies are not resurrected, rather, they rot in the earth. When Jesus resurrected, I understand his new body to be completely spiritual. By "spiritual" I don't mean invisible or without form. In this case, spiritual means eternal. Jesus resurrected and had a completely spiritual body, i.e. a body that was not subject to old age, disease and death. So maybe you are saying that souls float around without bodies (material or spiritual) awaiting for their spiritual body to appear?? And that brings up further questions like, why are they required to wait? If they are eligible, why not just attain the spiritual body immediately?

What do you think about reincarnation? Instead of the spirit floating around waiting for the spiritualization of the dead material body, it takes shelter in another body according to it's desires and natural law. The spirit continues to do this until purification is met and the spirit retains their pure spiritual body?

[Katzpur]

I see. So does the book of Mormon explain why souls come down to take embodiment? Also, why would souls who are liberated from the material body take shelter again in them?

Actually, the Book of Mormon is only one of four volumes of scripture that make up the LDS canon, or “Standard Works.” This doctrine may be alluded to in the Book of Mormon, but is more clearly outlined in the “Doctrine and Covenants.”

You are probably not familiar with our belief in an anthropomorphic, corporeal God. We believe that when the scriptures (Genesis 1) state that God created man “in His image, after His likeness,” they mean this literally. We believe that each of us is a spirit son or daughter of God, not merely His creations, but His own offspring, and that we have essentially the same physical form as He has. Since we also believe that He has endowed each of us with the potential to eventually become as He is, obtaining a physical body would be the logical first step that each of us knew we must take to reach that goal. We believe that mortality was a choice that each and every person who has ever been born (or will be born) chose to take. Our experiences here on earth would give us the opportunity to learn to distinguish between good and evil, making decisions that would lead us back to His presence stronger and with more knowledge than when we left Him. We do not see the physical body as a prison from which the spirit longs to be released. On the contrary, the Doctrine and Covenants teaches that “…man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy; And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.”

This whole resurrection thing throws a wrench in my understanding, of which part is knowing that material bodies are not resurrected, rather, they rot in the earth. When Jesus resurrected, I understand his new body to be completely spiritual. By "spiritual" I don't mean invisible or without form. In this case, spiritual means eternal. Jesus resurrected and had a completely spiritual body, i.e. a body that was not subject to old age, disease and death. So maybe you are saying that souls float around without bodies (material or spiritual) awaiting for their spiritual body to appear?? And that brings up further questions like, why are they required to wait? If they are eligible, why not just attain the spiritual body immediately?

Actually, we do believe that our material bodies are resurrected, but that when the spirit re-enters the body, the body will be renewed and perfected, made “spiritual” as you say, no longer subject to death or disease, but with a physical form and substance.

As for our spirits just “floating around without bodies, awaiting for their spiritual body to appear,” we don’t believe that will be the case. We believe that, upon death, the spirit leaves the body and goes to the Spirit World to await the resurrection. For the righteous, the Spirit World will be a Paradise, a place of peace and rest, but also a place where we continue to learn and grow spiritually. For the wicked, it will be a Prison, where they are tormented by guilt for their wrongdoings and by the agony of knowing that their lives were spent as they were. We believe, as do other Christians, that Jesus Christ is the only means by which we can be forgiven of our sins and reconciled to God. Unlike other Christians, though, we do not believe that mortality is the last chance a person will be given to accept the Gospel Jesus Christ taught while here on earth. We recognize that billions of God’s children lived and died without ever having even heard of Jesus Christ. At least millions more may have heard of Him but did not really have the opportunity to fully understand the reality of His sacrifice on their behalf. So, rather than just “floating around,” the spirits of those who did know of Him will be sharing the good news with those who either didn’t or who, due to a failure to understand it that only God can truly make allowances for, rejected it. By the time we stand before God to be judged, everyone who ever lived will have had an equal opportunity to hear, understand, and accept the message of salvation through Jesus Christ.

What do you think about reincarnation? Instead of the spirit floating around waiting for the spiritualization of the dead material body, it takes shelter in another body according to it's desires and natural law. The spirit continues to do this until purification is met and the spirit retains their pure spiritual body?

I reject the notion of reincarnation primarily because I see my spirit and my physical body as belonging together. I cannot imagine my spirit wanting to “take shelter” in the physical body that was intended for someone else. I believe we will have the opportunity to reach this pure state you mention without continued lives in different bodies.

Should I apologize for hijacking your thread, or should I let you do that?

[standing_on_one_foot]

But it'd still exist for an infinitely long period, whether you're going both ways in time or only one. That's the nifty thing about eternity. You can subtract as much time as you want from it (an infinite amount, if we're assuming time goes forever in both directions), and still have an eternity.

How' does the song go? "When we've been there ten thousand years, bright shining as the sun, we've no less days to sing G-d's praise than when we'd first begun." Nice way of expressing infinity, that.

So is the assumption that if something has a beginning it has to have an end? That it can only be eternal if it has no beginning? I don't see why that should have to be the case.

Sorry to disrupt the hijacking. Please continue

[Karl R]

Originally Posted by Paraprakrti

It seems quite oxymoronic to place a time constraint on our definition of eternity, doesn't it? That the soul didn't exist eternally regressing in time but will continue to exist eternally henceforth. What a precarious concept. So once again, how is something sometimes not eternal?

I can give a realistic analogy of how something can be infinite in only one direction.

Point a laser into space. Aim it so it misses any objects (fairly likely if you just aim it randomly, since space is mostly empty). The coherent beam of photons will continue on infinitely. The beam has an origin, but that doesn't mean that it ever stops.

The concept might be wrong, but it's not precarious. If you want more examples, mathematics is filled with examples of things that have a beginning and no end.

[stemann]

A half-line is half-infinite in length. It has a beginning point and continues unto infinity. It is a sound mathematical concept.... so I am told.....