Man vs. Beast (morals, choices, choice, morals, religion)

[bunny1ohio]

Originally Posted by Mike182

the entire animal kingdom seems to be content with what they percieve to be "life" .... generally speaking, we humans are not - just because we are more advanced, does not mean we are the best there is....

Very true... But we have no way to know if an animal wonders about why it's here or not since we don't understand them well enough...and we have no way of knowing if they are content or not, although they seem to be... except for the kicked dog who gets a treat from a kid and follows him home because he treated him better...

Okay... here's the point I was making with this thread's OP...

Human's are NO better than animals... not because of religion... science... thumbs... homosexuality... communication... we are definately worse about destroying the natural balance of things...

When asking what makes us better, I was really hoping someone would argue the human side... but that's ok... I'm for the animals in this one I never said we were the best lol... I think we are the worst actually when compared to the animal kingdom

[bunny1ohio]

Originally Posted by jeffrey

The ability to "find religion" when faced with death.

hehehehe... so we fear death as an inevitability and try to redeem ourselves at the last minute then yes?... I can go with that... animals fear death just a s humans do, but if there is a doggie god out there... the dogs aint talkin about him to us rofl

[Jaymes]

Originally Posted by bunny1ohio

What examples are those? That's one I haven't heard yet so I'm curious....

Chimps are one of the most violent primates. They treat their females pretty poorly, and regularly rape them. Not that this is really uncommon in the animal kingdom... they also regularly war with other family groups and practice infanticide.

Dolphins are the same, with regards to rape. They practice for infanticide on porpoises, which are smaller than them. They swim up under them, and ram them and send them flying into the air, and repeat until the porpoise's organs have burst and the animal dies.

[bunny1ohio]

Originally Posted by Jensa

Chimps are one of the most violent primates. They treat their females pretty poorly, and regularly rape them. Not that this is really uncommon in the animal kingdom... they also regularly war with other family groups and practice infanticide.

Dolphins are the same, with regards to rape. They practice for infanticide on porpoises, which are smaller than them. They swim up under them, and ram them and send them flying into the air, and repeat until the porpoise's organs have burst and the animal dies.

You are attributing "human" traits to their actions and taknig them out of context... when and why do they rape their females? Is it during breeding season and the females need the most dominant mate and this is how it is expressed? they "war" and practice "infanticide" as a survival instinct though... a group gets too large or too many families in one place deplete the natural resources... they must "cull the herd" so to speak in order to survive... humans do it for completely different reasons.

Again though... why do they do this? Do they just not like them? Are they being "bullies"? Or is there a bigger reason?

Great replies everyone

[Jaymes]

Originally Posted by bunny1ohio

You are attributing "human" traits to their actions and taknig them out of context... when and why do they rape their females? Is it during breeding season and the females need the most dominant mate and this is how it is expressed? they "war" and practice "infanticide" as a survival instinct though... a group gets too large or too many families in one place deplete the natural resources... they must "cull the herd" so to speak in order to survive... humans do it for completely different reasons.

Again though... why do they do this? Do they just not like them? Are they being "bullies"? Or is there a bigger reason?

Great replies everyone

While I'm not sure on chimps specifically, I've seen footage of gorillas luring females that are too young to breed away from the family group so that they can rape them because they're so hormonal and frustrated. Only the alpha males can mate with the females in a family group of gorillas, so the young males that aren't quite old enough to make it on their own take it out on those too young to breed and hope they don't get caught.

To quote a primatologist right quick, since my sinus medication's kicking in and I'm about to fall asleep:

"The bonobos are a wonderful species," says Wrangham. "I have been writing about them for some time because they are so fascinating. Chimpanzees occasionally have tremendous outbursts of violence rather like humans do, either things a bit like war or males battering their females and they generally have bad relationships. If they want to they can even rape their females. The bonobos however, are far less violent and the big difference is that whereas in chimpanzee life males are - all of them - socially dominant to females, with the bonobos - even though the males are still physically bigger - females rule the roost. They have taken power."

Dolphins usually practice infanticide not because of overpopulation, but because the calf isn't theirs. This is why female dolphins often mate with as many males as possible.

[bunny1ohio]

Originally Posted by Jensa

While I'm not sure on chimps specifically, I've seen footage of gorillas luring females that are too young to breed away from the family group so that they can rape them because they're so hormonal and frustrated. Only the alpha males can mate with the females in a family group of gorillas, so the young males that aren't quite old enough to make it on their own take it out on those too young to breed and hope they don't get caught.

To quote a primatologist right quick, since my sinus medication's kicking in and I'm about to fall asleep:

"The bonobos are a wonderful species," says Wrangham. "I have been writing about them for some time because they are so fascinating. Chimpanzees occasionally have tremendous outbursts of violence rather like humans do, either things a bit like war or males battering their females and they generally have bad relationships. If they want to they can even rape their females. The bonobos however, are far less violent and the big difference is that whereas in chimpanzee life males are - all of them - socially dominant to females, with the bonobos - even though the males are still physically bigger - females rule the roost. They have taken power."

Dolphins usually practice infanticide not because of overpopulation, but because the calf isn't theirs. This is why female dolphins often mate with as many males as possible.

INTERESTING.... so again we are on equal footing to animals even emotionally and in relationships....

With regards to the dolphin thing... I still say that is another form of population control in one way... survival of the fittest... the more dominant and aggressive the male is (killing infants not his own) the more likely his own genes are to be passed on and not another male's. It is a way natue has of weeding out the genetic pool. Cats have even been known to kill their own babies (males usually) but that is because of the blood from birth or the need to be the dominant animal and not get overrun....

This is a much better debate than I was expecting for this topic

[d.]

Originally Posted by Jensa

To quote a primatologist right quick, since my sinus medication's kicking in and I'm about to fall asleep:

"The bonobos are a wonderful species," says Wrangham. "I have been writing about them for some time because they are so fascinating. Chimpanzees occasionally have tremendous outbursts of violence rather like humans do, either things a bit like war or males battering their females and they generally have bad relationships. If they want to they can even rape their females. The bonobos however, are far less violent and the big difference is that whereas in chimpanzee life males are - all of them - socially dominant to females, with the bonobos - even though the males are still physically bigger - females rule the roost. They have taken power."

funny, i've been meaning to say something about the bonobos(in regard to monkeys learning language) here for a while but i'm too tired - it's 2 AM here and i'm just home from the pub - to write anything lengthy here.

anyway, i saw this documentary on language research using bonobos which was really amazing - kanzi, who the documentary focused on, had stunning language abilities which reminded me of a child or a mentally challenged person. instead of using sign language, the bonobos communicated with the research team using lexigrams.

but what struck me the most was how it became obvious that it's not just a matter of the bonobos learning 'language' (depends on your definition, sure)- and for that matter bonobos learning why they should be interested in sign language - but also a matter of people learning to understand the bonobos and their culture. and how striking the similarities between us are. the documentary showed a bonobo using scissors to cut her child's hair, a bonobo learning how to shape a rock to use as a tool, a bonobo talking on the phone and remembering the phone call the next day, and so on.

indeed i feel the more one studies animals, the more complex you realise their behavior and abilities are.

unfortunately, i can't find the documentary online. here's some links though :

kanzi

panbanisha

more apes

http://www.bonobo.org/

sadly, they're under threat of exctinction - seems like a familiar story, no?

[bunny1ohio]

Originally Posted by divine

anyway, i saw this documentary on language research using bonobos which was really amazing - kanzi, who the documentary focused on, had stunning language abilities which reminded me of a child or a mentally challenged person. instead of using sign language, the bonobos communicated with the research team using lexigrams.

but what struck me the most was how it became obvious that it's not just a matter of the bonobos learning 'language' (depends on your definition, sure)- and for that matter bonobos learning why they should be interested in sign language - but also a matter of people learning to understand the bonobos and their culture. and how striking the similarities between us are. the documentary showed a bonobo using scissors to cut her child's hair, a bonobo learning how to shape a rock to use as a tool, a bonobo talking on the phone and remembering the phone call the next day, and so on.

indeed i feel the more one studies animals, the more complex you realise their behavior and abilities are.

sadly, they're under threat of exctinction - seems like a familiar story, no?

Pardon my ignorance in this matter... but what is a lexigram?

That is intensely fascinating... wow.

I agree... and the more animalistic we truly are in return

Very sad... and very familiar... mostly due to man's ignorance of our brother beasts

[d.]

Originally Posted by bunny1ohio

Pardon my ignorance in this matter... but what is a lexigram?

um, sorry.

wikipedia :

A lexigram is a symbol that represents a word but is not necessarily indicative of the word by itself.

[bunny1ohio]

Originally Posted by divine

um, sorry.

wikipedia :

A lexigram is a symbol that represents a word but is not necessarily indicative of the word by itself.

Like the symbol of the fish representing Christ or Christianity? It's a fish... but the interpretation is what is conveyed. Is that about right?