Is God a split-personality? (Jesus, contradiction, blood, creation, atheist)

[Booko]

Originally Posted by bunny1ohio

To me, your interpretation would likely be closer to the truth if we are in fact "made in his image" then I would think that we would take on his personality aspects as well.

Ah, but then I believe that we are made in the image of God, that is, we have all of the attributes of God. The point of this life is to take those attributes (love, justice, mercy, compassion, yeah, even humour) that we have "in potential" and grow them.

But to get back more directly to the OP, texts always turn out different depending on the writer's pov. I think Sojourner has a good take on this in his earlier post.

If you have a 3 year old, a 12 year old and an adult witness some event and tell you about it, you would get some very different stories also. That doesn't mean the stories are wrong or contradict each other. They're just from different perspectives.

btw, and not to digress, please remember that when you read the "OT" (aka Tenach) you are not reading the whole story. There's the entire oral Torah to deal with, that people esp. from Christian backgrounds forget about. For more on that, you'd have to pop over to one of the Judaism conferences and I'm sure people there would be happy to answer any questions you have.

[bunny1ohio]

Originally Posted by sojourner

With the writers of the N.T., we see a shift in the perspective of the writers.

If you look at the overarching message of the Bible, you will see that the people God is seen to have smitten are "evildoers" -- non-believers. To those writers, God was not the God of the whole world, but the God of the Hebrews. We view God differently in today's world.

Okay Sojourner... so people's perspective of G-d changes G-d in the eyes of men then? G-d is eternal and never-changing according to Christian beliefs, he is a constant. So why would people view him differently from age to age? What changed to change their minds is what I'm asking. And if all of the scriptures are about the same G-d, why could he not "have himself" perceived however he was meant to be perceived? After all... he is G-d

And I would have to disagree with your other statement here Soj.... He slew his own creation (men) in their "entirety" except for individuals in each instance... that includes the Hebrews. Why?

LE 26:7-8, NU 31:17-18, DT 20:16-17, JS 10:40, JG 14:19, EZ 9:5-7 The Spirit of God is (sometimes) murder and killing.

There are many many instances of violence ordered by G-d all throughout the bible. And not all of the people punished are "wrong-doers". Innocent babies... cannibalism...

A list of some of these things.....
War
The biblical God is guilty of wartime atrocities. After bringing the Israelites out of captivity in Egypt, he ordered them to attack King Sihon of Heshbon. So the Israelites "put to death everyone in the cities, men, women, and dependents" and "left no survivor."[14]
Pestilence
Another punishment God frequently employs is to inflict diseases on people. After the Exodus from Egypt, the Israelites complained about having no meat to eat while wandering in the wilderness. Then the "Lord's anger broke out against the people and he struck them with a deadly plague."[35]
Famine
God uses famines to torment and kill people. After David angered him by taking the census, God said one of the punishments David could choose was three years of famine.[46]
Fire
God likes to burn people. There is the story of him raining fire and brimstone on the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah. By this means, he "destroyed all the Plain, with everything living there."[61]
Torture
God carries his ruthlessness to infinite extremes in the New Testament by inflicting eternal torture on people. Being the firebug that he is, his preferred method of torture is to burn them.
Wild Animals
The Lord kills and injures people by causing wild animals to attack them. He warned the Israelites that if they disobey him, he will "send wild beasts among you; they shall tear your children from you, destroy your cattle and bring your numbers low. . . ."[89]
Infanticide
Killing babies is another method God uses to express his anger. As already noted, babies were drowned in the worldwide Flood,[100] Egyptian babies were among the firstborn killed at the Passover,[101] and babies were killed in the wars of extermination.[102]
Cannibalism
God causes cannibalism. According to the book of Leviticus, he promises that if the Israelites disobey him: "I myself will punish you seven times over for your sins. Instead of meat you shall eat your sons and your daughters."[111]
Executions
God is a big proponent of capital punishment. He likes it so much that he required it even when the seriousness of the offenses was glaringly disproportionate to the death penalty. And he directed that the killings be done brutally.
Mutilation
God ordered people to use mutilation in their legal system. And he sanctioned its use against a prisoner of war.
In the New Testament, Jesus supported mutilation. To avoid lusting after women, he recommended that men pluck out their own eyes.[143] To prevent masturbation, he advocated that people cut off their hands.[144] And he endorsed castration for "the sake of the kingdom of Heaven," and said to let "those accept it who can."[145]
Beatings and Floggings
Under the Law of Moses, judges can sentence a wrongdoer to be flogged. The number of strokes corresponds to the gravity of the offense and can be as high as 40.[146]

Etc etc... there are many more examples than just this ... but here's a site that I got these particulars from that have them all categorized like this.... http://www.humanismbyjoe.com/Violence_and_God.htm

Most of the "violence" was in the OT... the NT even has well over a hundred examples of violence... http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt.html

So once again... what changed? It wasn't just the coming of Christ, because as I said the NT has over a hundred violent acts like the OT's.

[bunny1ohio]

Originally Posted by dawny0826

Ultimately, God is Father...Creator over all. From this Christian's perspective, our lives are HIS to LIVE...not our own.

I think many God-fearing individuals get this backwards. It's not about us...it's not about our understanding...our pereceptions...it's about HIM...and HIS will.

And if you really READ the Bible...both OT and NT...you'll see that God has never carried out an act against man that man didn't deserve. Man sinned. Man defied God. God has never forsaken man.

My God IS love and He's ALWAYS been love. I SEE the love that He's had for His people...throughout the ENTIRE Bible.

Hiya again Dawny! I cut most of your reply out just for the sake of saving space lol. I get where you're coming from, but from your comments I would have a big question for you... what about "free will"?

And please take the time to read through my reply to Sojourner regarding the acts against man part.

Yes, his love has been there throughout the book, but also his vengeful wrath is present throughout as well.

Thanks for the reply Dawny

[sojourner]

Okay Sojourner... so people's perspective of G-d changes G-d in the eyes of men then? G-d is eternal and never-changing according to Christian beliefs, he is a constant. So why would people view him differently from age to age? What changed to change their minds is what I'm asking. And if all of the scriptures are about the same G-d, why could he not "have himself" perceived however he was meant to be perceived? After all... he is G-d

God is constant. Humanity is what changes. As we change, our perspectives change, including how we view God. some things that factored in to the change in perception:
The inception of Greek philosophy.
The development of the human world view.
A shift in how we define "community."
Development of social awareness.
Development of theological thought.

God is love. Love is based upon relationships. Love does not coerce. Therefore, God allows us to view God as we are able to view God, even as God works with us to clarify our perceptions.

[bunny1ohio]

Originally Posted by Booko

If you have a 3 year old, a 12 year old and an adult witness some event and tell you about it, you would get some very different stories also. That doesn't mean the stories are wrong or contradict each other. They're just from different perspectives.

btw, and not to digress, please remember that when you read the "OT" (aka Tenach) you are not reading the whole story. There's the entire oral Torah to deal with, that people esp. from Christian backgrounds forget about. For more on that, you'd have to pop over to one of the Judaism conferences and I'm sure people there would be happy to answer any questions you have.

I like your explanation on it the best so far Booko... but I would still have to ask... if he loved us all so much that he eventually became flesh and died for us to abolish our sins.... why is this love not perceived as clearly in the OT as in the NT? It's not as if he doesn't have the ability to make it known, or to help men understand, right?

I have personally never read or heard anything from the Torah that I am aware of, but that was mostly due to lack of interest on my part. But, if that is the case, shouldn't all Christians be aware of this? I personally know a LOT of Christians who know only what is in the Bible... myself included, although I'm not a Christian. Why wouldn't he make his intentions better known to the people he loves so much?

Even in punishing a child (example from Dawny) I always make sure they understand that what I do is for love and for their best interest... so why would G-d leave his "children" completely in the dark as to his intentions?

[bunny1ohio]

Originally Posted by sojourner

God is constant. Humanity is what changes. As we change, our perspectives change, including how we view God. some things that factored in to the change in perception:
The inception of Greek philosophy.
The development of the human world view.
A shift in how we define "community."
Development of social awareness.
Development of theological thought.

God is love. Love is based upon relationships. Love does not coerce. Therefore, God allows us to view God as we are able to view God, even as God works with us to clarify our perceptions.

I get what you're saying here Soj... but I guess a better way to phrase my question would be this.... as we evolve/change perspectives... however you wish to phrase it... no matter how men change... if G-d is constant... then our awareness of him should be constant. His laws and rules have changed from OT to NT not just personality.

Just because society changes, that doesn't mean an all-powerful being has to change. And if our perceptions were wrong, then why didn't he correct them? Why would he send Christ to an ancient world where there is virtually no communication, no technology, no question that there are "gods" who will show their wrath if disobeyed. Why not drop him into Times Square in present day? Or anyone for that matter that can give some proof to the people who need it?

Instead, we are asked to believe in something that happened over 2000 years ago in a time when even written records were nearly impossible to come by, and that occured in a mostly illiterate day and age. Every biblical "miracle" happened in ancient times. So, wouldn't he know that as technology advanced people would become MORE skeptical and need MORE proof, not less? Where is it?

[Booko]

Originally Posted by bunny1ohio

I like your explanation on it the best so far Booko... but I would still have to ask... if he loved us all so much that he eventually became flesh and died for us to abolish our sins.... why is this love not perceived as clearly in the OT as in the NT? It's not as if he doesn't have the ability to make it known, or to help men understand, right?

Uh...bunny...you may have mistaken me for a Christian. I believe that Jesus came here with a Message, and died on the cross and all, but the *point* was the Message. Without the Message, the death would be rendered meaningless. Also, since I don't do original sin, I don't subscribe to the Western Christian notion of the atonement. My take on it is, you want your sins removed, then believe in Jesus and do what He says in the Gospels. Yes...that should about do it.

As for things in the message that need to be corrected or could be amplified, there have been 3 Messengers since Jesus who did exactly that job. That's why we get Messengers -- to correct things we've misunderstood, to remind us of things we need to do, and to give us additional information when we're ready to handle it.

I have personally never read or heard anything from the Torah that I am aware of, but that was mostly due to lack of interest on my part. But, if that is the case, shouldn't all Christians be aware of this? I personally know a LOT of Christians who know only what is in the Bible... myself included, although I'm not a Christian. Why wouldn't he make his intentions better known to the people he loves so much?

See my comments above on the other 3 Messengers. You have the Qu'ran, the Bayan and the Writings of Baha'u'llah. Every time we get another Messenger we get more info. Kinda like school -- as we continue to grow we gain capacity to understand the message.

I think you're making a classic mistake in your view of the Tenach vs. NT in the Bible, bunny. Do you think illiterate human nomads in 3000 BCE could understand as much as people from a more literate agricultural civiliation? Do you think we could understand more now than 2000 years ago?

For an example, please define "the world" in terms these groups would understand.

Even in punishing a child (example from Dawny) I always make sure they understand that what I do is for love and for their best interest... so why would G-d leave his "children" completely in the dark as to his intentions?

He hasn't. Just as any good parent does, God keeps adding to the message as the kids grow up. Explaining "where do babies come from?" to a 3 year old is nothing like explaining it to a 12 year old.

My take on it is, at this point in humanity's growth. we're like teenagers about to move out of the house. We think we know it all, but now that we have to pay our own bills and clean everything ourselves, we're getting a serious reality check.

The world is pretty messy now, but we'll get over it and grow up into responsible adults eventually.

[sojourner]

Originally Posted by bunny1ohio

I get what you're saying here Soj... but I guess a better way to phrase my question would be this.... as we evolve/change perspectives... however you wish to phrase it... no matter how men change... if G-d is constant... then our awareness of him should be constant. His laws and rules have changed from OT to NT not just personality.

Just because society changes, that doesn't mean an all-powerful being has to change. And if our perceptions were wrong, then why didn't he correct them? Why would he send Christ to an ancient world where there is virtually no communication, no technology, no question that there are "gods" who will show their wrath if disobeyed. Why not drop him into Times Square in present day? Or anyone for that matter that can give some proof to the people who need it?

Instead, we are asked to believe in something that happened over 2000 years ago in a time when even written records were nearly impossible to come by, and that occured in a mostly illiterate day and age. Every biblical "miracle" happened in ancient times. So, wouldn't he know that as technology advanced people would become MORE skeptical and need MORE proof, not less? Where is it?

When I was in pre-school, I thought fourth-graders were really big and really cool. I no longer think that. The fourth graders haven't changed -- but I have.

Remember, it's our perception of the "rules" that changes. The "rules" are not there for God's benefit, but for ours. If we perceive a "rule" to be helpful to our understanding, wew use it. If we don't perceive a "rule" to be helpful, we tend to discard it.

Of course every Biblical miracle happened in ancient times...that's when the Bible was written. The Bible does talk about future miracles...we call them "prophecies."

God is not a God of proof, but a God of revelation. Skeptics always ask for proof where proof is neither indicated, nor asked for. God neither seeks to prove God's self, nor does God ask us to prove God. God seeks to reveal and be revealed.