Why do muslims think we christians worship mary? (Jesus, priests)

[ΩRôghênΩ]

trinity??? this thread shows a muslim stating that we christians worship mary, which is definately not true.

also, the creator of sed thread posts

IT IS NOT ERROR OF KORAN.THIS IS ERROR OF YOU.
OF COURSE JESUS NEVER SAID ME AND MY MOTHER IS AGOD.
BUT CATHOLICS SAYS MARY IS MOTHER OF GOD.AND WE CAN PRAY TO HIM.THIS MEANS CATHOLICS BELIEVE MARY AS A GOD.
THERE IS NO ERROR IN ISLAM.

which is definatle as well not true

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by ~Lord Roghen~

trinity??? this thread shows a muslim stating that we christians worship mary, which is definately not true.

also, the creator of sed thread posts



which is definatle as well not true

It was the perception of the time that Mary ws worshipped. There were statues of Mary in churches and people visibly prayed to it.

A statue is, to Judaism and Islam, an idol. Praying to an idol is idolatry. Idolatry is against the law to Jews and Muslims.

Today we understand that people are using the statue as an avatar and praying GOD through a visualization of Christ or Mary, but who knows what the understanding of people of the 7th Century AD might have been. This was before people were allowed to read scripture for themselves and most could not. They were doing as the priests told them and to Muhammad the priests were telling them to worship idols.

I can see the point of view, can't you?

As to the PERSONAGE of Mary Islam has a higher opinion than Christianity does. I suggest you read the Surah of Maryam (Mary) in the Qur'an for understanding.

Regards,
Scott

[sojourner]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

It was the perception of the time that Mary ws worshipped. There were statues of Mary in churches and people visibly prayed to it.

A statue is, to Judaism and Islam, an idol. Praying to an idol is idolatry. Idolatry is against the law to Jews and Muslims.

Today we understand that people are using the statue as an avatar and praying GOD through a visualization of Christ or Mary, but who knows what the understanding of people of the 7th Century AD might have been. This was before people were allowed to read scripture for themselves and most could not. They were doing as the priests told them and to Muhammad the priests were telling them to worship idols.

I can see the point of view, can't you?

As to the PERSONAGE of Mary Islam has a higher opinion than Christianity does. I suggest you read the Surah of Maryam (Mary) in the Qur'an for understanding.

Regards,
Scott

Yet, if Muhammed perceived that the people were praying to statues, when they, in reality, were not, then Muhammed was erroneous in his perception, thus rendering the statement, "there is no error in Islam," false.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by sojourner

Yet, if Muhammed perceived that the people were praying to statues, when they, in reality, were not, then Muhammed was erroneous in his perception, thus rendering the statement, "there is no error in Islam," false.

I would contend that the people of time of Muhammad were largely ignorant, illiterate and conformist in the extreme. They WERE in fact in the day of Muhammad praying to statues - on the advice of their priests.

So Muhammad was not in error when He spoke.

Regards,
Scott

[sojourner]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

I would contend that the people of time of Muhammad were largely ignorant, illiterate and conformist in the extreme. They WERE in fact in the day of Muhammad praying to statues - on the advice of their priests.

So Muhammad was not in error when He spoke.

Regards,
Scott

But he is in error now...

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by sojourner

But he is in error now...

So? In the intervening years, as the Christian church looked at the charge of idolatry over and over again, they educated their priesthood better about the question of the statues of Mary and Christ and reinvented their own doctrine to answer the chares of Islam and others.

That Christianity changed to modify its beliefs BECAUSE thay HAD BEEN in fact, worshipping statues, doesn't make Muhammad wrong in His words at all.

Besides, you are in the estimate of Muslims, in error by not accepting Muhammad and the Qur'an. Its just a matter of one's point of view.

Did the words of Jesus make Moses WRONG? Put Moses in error? Not according to Jesus Himself, at any rate.

Regards,
Scott

[sojourner]

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

So? In the intervening years, as the Christian church looked at the charge of idolatry over and over again, they educated their priesthood better about the question of the statues of Mary and Christ and reinvented their own doctrine to answer the chares of Islam and others.

That Christianity changed to modify its beliefs BECAUSE thay HAD BEEN in fact, worshipping statues, doesn't make Muhammad wrong in His words at all.

Besides, you are in the estimate of Muslims, in error by not accepting Muhammad and the Qur'an. Its just a matter of one's point of view.

Did the words of Jesus make Moses WRONG? Put Moses in error? Not according to Jesus Himself, at any rate.

Regards,
Scott

The point is, the claim was made that there is no error in Islam. That's just not true.

Just for the sake of argument, could you provide evidence that the early Christians were, in fact, worshiping the statues, as you claim, and not simply praying to God in front of the statues? I'd be interested to see...

[PHOTOTAKER]

i recently saw a program on the catholic channel (ewti or something), it was about marry and the end of it suppressed me, "this is why we warship marry" this lift me a bit confused... i asked a catholic priest a bit later, and he said we pray to marry but not warship marry... if people are confused its because the catholic church doesn’t teach there people correct principle on what they believe in. (just to let you know I’m not catholic)

one thing that anther catholic priest sad or it what he didn't say is the question was asked What beliefs makes the catholic church different? 10 min later he still didn't answer the question in that 10 minutes he answer what the basics are to be true its what i believe and most other christens believe and he never made a point on what was different about the church that makes it hard to figure out, he admitted several time that the church is finely getting the teaching of Christ right... if they weren’t then how do they know now?? i don't wont to debate this there is no need... but i thank all churches need to make the effort to teach there people on there beliefs i can ask one question which there should be one answer and instead get 20 different answers, when there should only be one... my point if there is any confusion about anything then it needs to be taken care of by teaching the people, the people of any church is what represents it...


on anther point i understand some of the beleif and i know that it is not right... and there no point in debating right or wrong...

[Lindsey-Loo]

One thing I know, I definantly don't worship Mary. So to any Muslims out there who might be confused, just know that I don't worship her.

I can see why it would be confusing though. While flipping through tv channels, I come across at least two that show nuns praying "hail mary, mother of God, full of grace, etc., etc. etc.," or however it goes. Now, it seems to me that that is praying to Mary. Could someone shed a little light on this for me, and others, please?

Any how, just because Muslims might see Catholics praying to Mary, that certainly doesn't mean all Christians do. If I may say so, Catholic doctrine is generally a good bit differant from most other Christian denominations.

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by sojourner

The point is, the claim was made that there is no error in Islam. That's just not true.

Just for the sake of argument, could you provide evidence that the early Christians were, in fact, worshiping the statues, as you claim, and not simply praying to God in front of the statues? I'd be interested to see...

St. John of the Cross thought so:
"4. This will become quite clear from the detestable custom which certain persons observe with regard to images in these our days. Holding not in abhorence the vain trappings of the world, they adorn images with the garments which from time to time vain persons invent in order to satisfy their own pleasures and vanities. So they clothe images with garments reprehensible even in themselves, a kind of vanity which was, and is still, abhorrent to the saints whom the images represent. Herein, with their help, the devil succeeds in canonizing his vanities, by clothing the saints with them, not without causing them great displeasure. And in this way the honest and grave devotion of the soul, which rejects and spurns all vanity and every trace of it, becomes with them little more than a dressing of dolls; some persons use images merely as idols upon which they have set their rejoicing. And thus you will see certain persons who are never tired of adding one image to another, and wish them to be of this or that kind and workmanship, and to be placed in this or that manner, so as to be pleasing to sense; and they make little account of the devotion of the heart. They are as much attached to them as was Michas to his idols,[658] or as was Laban;[659] for the one ran out of his house crying aloud because they were being taken from him; and the other, having made a long journey and been very wroth because of them, disturbed all the household stuff of Jacob, in searching for them.
5. The person who is truly devout sets his devotion principally upon that which is invisible; he needs few images and uses few, and chooses those that harmonize with the Divine rather than with the human, clothing them, and with them himself, in the garments of the world to come, and following its fashions rather than those of this world. For not only does an image belonging to this world in no way influence his desire; it does not even lead him to think of this world, in spite of his having before his eyes something worldly, akin to the world's interests. Nor is his heart attached to the images that he uses; if they are taken from him, he grieves very little, for he seeks within himself the living image, which is Christ crucified, for Whose sake he even desires that all should be taken from him and he should have nothing. Even when the motives and means which lead him closest to God are taken from him, he remains in tranquility. For the soul is nearer perfection when it is tranquil and joyous, though it be deprived of these motives, than if it has possession of them together with desire and attachment. For, although it is good to be pleased to have such images as assist the soul to greater devotion (for which reason it is those which move it most that must always be chosen), yet it is something far removed from perfection to be so greatly attached to them as to possess them with attachment, so that, if they are taken away from the soul, it becomes sad.
6. Let the soul be sure that, the more closely it is attached to an image or a motive, the less will its devotion and prayer mount to God. For, although it is true that, since some are more appropriate than others, and excite devotion more than others, it is well, for this reason alone, to be more affectioned to some than to others, as I have just now said, yet there must be none of the attachment and affection which I have described. Otherwise, that which has to sustain the spirit in its flight to God, in total forgetfulness, will be wholly occupied by sense, and the soul will be completely immersed in a delight afforded it by what are but instruments. These instruments I have to use, but solely in order to assist me in devotion; and, on account of my imperfection, they may well serve me as a hindrance, no less so than may affection and attachment to anything else."
(St. John of the Cross, Ascent of Mount Carmel)

And Martin Luther:
Therefore the heathen really make their self-invented notions and dreams of God an idol, and put their trust in that which is altogether nothing. Thus it is with all idolatry; for it consists not merely in erecting an image and worshiping it, but rather in the heart, which stands gaping at something else, and seeks help and consolation from creatures saints, or devils, and neither cares for God, nor looks to Him for so much good as to believe that He is willing to help, neither believes that whatever good it experiences comes from God.
(Martin Luther, Large Catechism)

AND

Let us, then, learn well the First Commandment, that we may see how God will tolerate no presumption nor any trust in any other object, and how He requires nothing higher of us than confidence from the heart for everything good, so that we may proceed right and straightforward and use all the blessings which God gives no farther than as a shoemaker uses his needle, awl, and thread for work, and then lays them aside, or as a traveler uses an inn, and food, and his bed only for temporal necessity, each one in his station, according to God's order, and without allowing any of these things to be our food or idol. Let this suffice with respect to the First Commandment, which we have had to explain at length, since it is of chief importance, because, as before said, where the heart is rightly disposed toward God and this commandment is observed, all the others follow.
(Martin Luther, Large Catechism)

And From "Doctrines and Covenants":
"D&C 1:16 They seek not the Lord to establish his righteousness, but every man walketh in his own way, and after the image of his own God, whose image is in the likeness of the world, and whose substance is that of an idol, which waxeth old and shall perish in Babylon, even Babylon the great, which shall fall."
(LDS (Mormon), The Doctrine and Covenants)


Regards,
Scott