You're going to Heaven, like it or not! (Jesus Christ, beliefs)

Squirt · #1 03-14-2006, 08:46 PM

Hey, Sojourner!

This one's for you.

You know that while I do not take a universalist perspective to who will end up in Heaven, my beliefs are that the vast, vast majority of mankind will go there eventually. I would include in this group the worst of the worst, the most depraved individuals the world has ever known. Now I don't believe that their ultimate reward will be the same as that which will be given to those who loved God and their fellow men, who were faithful to Jesus Christ (once they had the opportunity to accept Him), but even so, Heaven for them will still be heir to a glory which "surpasses all understanding."

What I am wondering is what your belief is concerning those individuals who have no desire to go to Heaven, those who literally detest God and want no part of Him. You may say that there won't be any of these people, that once we stand in God's presence, the pull of His love will be so great that no one will be able to resist it. If that would be your initial response, please stop to consider Lucifer. He was well-acquainted with God. He'd felt God's great love and knew Jesus Christ. And yet, look at the choice he made. One third of the host of heaven sided with him. It is altogether possible that there are some who, if given the choice, would actually choose not to spend eternity in God's presence. How does your theology handle their situation?

(All comments welcome. I'm just mostly curious about Sojourner's.)

Ðanisty · #2 03-14-2006, 08:59 PM

Quote:

What I am wondering is what your belief is concerning those individuals who have no desire to go to Heaven, those who literally detest God and want no part of Him. You may say that there won't be any of these people, that once we stand in God's presence, the pull of His love will be so great that no one will be able to resist it. If that would be your initial response, please stop to consider Lucifer. He was well-acquainted with God. He'd felt God's great love and knew Jesus Christ. And yet, look at the choice he made. One third of the host of heaven sided with him. It is altogether possible that there are some who, if given the choice, would actually choose not to spend eternity in God's presence. How does your theology handle their situation?

My theology is sort of based on that. I don't want to go to heaven or be in God's presence. I choose to go with Lucifer. I handle it quite well.

Squirt · #3 03-14-2006, 09:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ðanisty

My theology is sort of based on that. I don't want to go to heaven or be in God's presence. I choose to go with Lucifer. I handle it quite well.

Well, it will be especially interesting to know what Sojourner has to say about you! (I kind of hope you change your mind at some point. I'd really kind of like to get to know you, and I'd much prefer that it be in Heaven!)

dawny0826 · #4 03-14-2006, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ðanisty

My theology is sort of based on that. I don't want to go to heaven or be in God's presence. I choose to go with Lucifer. I handle it quite well.

Danisty, this is off topic and Squirt...I'll post this elsewhere if you want...

Just out of curiousity...since you don't have the desire to go to heaven...what do you think you're afterlife with Lucifer will be like? Do you believe in hell? Just wondering.

And Squirt...to kind of post on topic...

I believe with much of what you've posted...with the exception that I don't believe that we have a second chance after death. I believe that there is a very real hell to avoid and that unfortunately, many will be going.

I don't know if I asked this or not...and I will take the question to another thread...if I'm derailing anything here...but do the LDS believe in hell?

If not...what do you make of scripture which references "hell fire" and being "cast" down?

Ziddy · #5 03-14-2006, 09:04 PM

To be perfectly honest, the rules to get "into heaven" are extreme.
Correct me if I'm wrong
Examples: You can't have sex unless the only reason is to have a child.

Now, really folks, you can't expect a vast majority of mankind to be going to heaven if having sex is going to get you a ticket to hell.

If you miss one Sunday mass, and are not sorry for it, you go to hell.

Saying "God damn it" gives you a one-way-ticket going down.

dawny0826 · #6 03-14-2006, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ziddy

To be perfectly honest, the rules to get "into heaven" are extreme.
Correct me if I'm wrong
Examples: You can't have sex unless the only reason is to have a child.

Now, really folks, you can't expect a vast majority of mankind to be going to heaven if having sex is going to get you a ticket to hell.

If you miss one Sunday mass, and are not sorry for it, you go to hell.

Saying "God damn it" gives you a one-way-ticket going down.

Where are you going with all this?

Judgement Day · #7 03-14-2006, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squirt

(All comments welcome. I'm just mostly curious about Sojourner's.)

Does that mean my comments too?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squirt

Hey, Sojourner!

This one's for you.

You know that while I do not take a universalist perspective to who will end up in Heaven, my beliefs are that the vast, vast majority of mankind will go there eventually. I would include in this group the worst of the worst, the most depraved individuals the world has ever known. Now I don't believe that their ultimate reward will be the same as that which will be given to those who loved God and their fellow men, who were faithful to Jesus Christ (once they had the opportunity to accept Him), but even so, Heaven for them will still be heir to a glory which "surpasses all understanding."

I agree that most of humans will go to heaven:

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 575:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri:
The Prophet said, "Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection), 'O Adam!' Adam will reply, 'Labbaik wa Sa'daik! ' Then a loud Voice will be heard (Saying) 'Allah Commands you to take out the mission of the Hell Fire from your offspring.' " (Sahih Bukhari)

God's mercy is UNLIMITED! God forgives whomever He wants: Muslims, Christians, Jews, Atheists, Buddhists etc. On which degree of heaven they will occupy, is detemined by their effort in finding the truth. Not all people are able to find the truth, even though they have spent huge amount of time searching. Effort matters! Ignorance has no excuse. But the responsibility of their deeds still needs to be taken into action to fulfill the concept of justice among humans, not all will go straightaway to heaven, which I know is quite different from the point of view of Christianity.

sojourner · #8 03-14-2006, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squirt

Hey, Sojourner!

This one's for you.

You know that while I do not take a universalist perspective to who will end up in Heaven, my beliefs are that the vast, vast majority of mankind will go there eventually. I would include in this group the worst of the worst, the most depraved individuals the world has ever known. Now I don't believe that their ultimate reward will be the same as that which will be given to those who loved God and their fellow men, who were faithful to Jesus Christ (once they had the opportunity to accept Him), but even so, Heaven for them will still be heir to a glory which "surpasses all understanding."

What I am wondering is what your belief is concerning those individuals who have no desire to go to Heaven, those who literally detest God and want no part of Him. You may say that there won't be any of these people, that once we stand in God's presence, the pull of His love will be so great that no one will be able to resist it. If that would be your initial response, please stop to consider Lucifer. He was well-acquainted with God. He'd felt God's great love and knew Jesus Christ. And yet, look at the choice he made. One third of the host of heaven sided with him. It is altogether possible that there are some who, if given the choice, would actually choose not to spend eternity in God's presence. How does your theology handle their situation?

(All comments welcome. I'm just mostly curious about Sojourner's.)

We always seem to champion human free will over God's intentions. While we can look at the very real examples of human resistance to God's grace and become daunted by them, if, in fact, what you claim is true: That our will is more important and greater than God's will for us, then we must conclude that God is ultimately powerless against death. Death always has the last word over God's will.

Picture, if you will, a scene of the holocaust -- thousands of God's beloved people being run through the gas chambers, with God standing helplessly off to the side, powerless to save them.

I just don't think it's going to be that way. God cannot be omnipotent and not have the power to ultimately save us against our will. God's intentions take priority over human free will.

Remember, Satan may have chosen to leave heaven with his minions, but it ain't over yet! (I don't believe in a personality called Satan, but just to play with your example) One day, God will triumph over even the will of Satan, and bring him back into the family.

I like to remember the kind words of God in Hosea (11:8-9), when God decides to love God's ungrateful, rebellious children: "How can I give you up, Ephraim? How can I hand you over, Israel? How can I treat you like Admah? How can I make you like Zeboiim? My heart is changed within me; all my compassion is aroused. I will not carry out my fierce anger, nor will I turn and devastate Ephraim. For I am God, and not man -- the Holy one among you. I will not come in wrath."

sojourner · #9 03-14-2006, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Squirt

Well, it will be especially interesting to know what Sojourner has to say about you! (I kind of hope you change your mind at some point. I'd really kind of like to get to know you, and I'd much prefer that it be in Heaven!)

God respects our "right" to rebel...but one day, God will get God's way, because God's love is far, far greater than our resistance.