Know him before you insult him... (Jesus, followers, minority, Revelation)

[Darkdale]

Originally Posted by michel

Isn't that always the problem ? talk politics, Religion, whatever you like......the only voices you'll hear are from extremists (and that means at both ends of the scale).

That isn't the case in the United States. In politics we allow ourselves to enjoy the Michael Moore's and the Sean Hannity's, but in the end we come to the middle, demand results, and are constantly disappointed when we don't get them.

This is more of a religious problem, than a political problem. Religious people seem to have trouble condemning the violent acts of their brothers and sisters. Instead, they get defensive and angry, is if the victims of the violence are to blame.

[St0ne]

There is truth in that, quote my english teacher tought me comes to mind I just can't remember what it was or who said it but basically.

The greatest atrocity of man is when good men remain quite when evil is screaming from the rooftops.

Honestly though not relying on the media even when you look for Muslims who are trying to make a difference they are the ones far in the minority. I think now people should really start asking themselves if good muslims do really make up the majority of islam. I reckon a hell of a lot of the muslims at the demostartions in england were previously thought of as good muslims. All it took was a cartoon to get them out threatening Europe with their own 9/11.

[Karl R]

Originally Posted by Darkdale

This is somewhere between naive and dishonest.

Do you have any evidence to back up this assertion?

Terrorists in Baghdad have repeatedly blown up mosques. Do you think it's because they forgot where they parked their car bomb? I'd say it's strong evidence that terrorists don't like muslims that have opposing viewpoints.

Originally Posted by Darkdale

Instead, they get defensive and angry, is if the victims of the violence are to blame.

Sigh.

Let me draw a simple analogy. Let's say tonight, after work, I go to the bar. I walk into the bar, find the biggest, drunkest guy in the place. I go up to this guy and insult his wife, mother, and daughter. The guy naturally tries to beat my face in.

The police come to the bar and arrest the guy who attacked me, because he's guilty of assault. The police ask me if I wish to press charges, because I'm the "victim" of his assault.

But who started the fight? I would say I started it ... with my mouth. I attacked him. His reaction was wrong, and criminal. But my action was also wrong. I am partly to blame for his wrongdoing, even if I can't be prosecuted for it.


The authors of the cartoon are racists. They created this cartoon and published it with the hope that it would get some sort of extreme reaction. Their actions show forethought and malice. This doesn't mitigate the blame to the people commiting the violence, but the cartoonists share in the blame for each and every death related to these incidents ... even if they can't be held criminally responsible.

[Darkdale]

Originally Posted by Karl R

The authors of the cartoon are racists.

This is absurd.

It is naive to think that a vast majority of Muslims desire peace, simply because they are not participating in the violence. Their silence isn't because of a lack of media coverage, but a lack of real action. These Cartoons were NOT racist. They were a fair commentary on Islam, and all the violence that has followed has been a matter of these Muslims who simply cannot control themselves.

I understand your desire to be understanding, but there is a difference between being understanding and naive. A cartoon should NEVER result in violence. Free Speech should never be fought with murder and hatred. I think people that are so offended by cartoons that they become violent are suffering from a kind of social sickness, a collective hysteria.

[sojourner]

This is exactly what we have debated in another thread about judging. This is exactly what Jesus was talking about when he invited the one without sin to throw the first rock at the prostitute. This is exactly what Jesus was talking about when he said that we should yank the log out of our own eye before complaining about the speck in our brother's eye.

Some Christians have been responsible for their own atrocities, it's true: The Crusades, the Inquisition, the political pandering, the coersion of the powerless into accepting the "state religion" of Christianity. Some of us scream the loudest when slaves wanted to be freed, when blacks wanted equal rights, when women wanted equality, when homosexuals want equal treatment under the law. I would be willing to bet that many of the Christians who are yelling the loudest about how evil Islam is, are the very ones who would have opposed emancipation, women's suffrage, and equal rights. They subscribe to the same kind of over-zealous, narrow-minded, draconian sort of religiosity that the Muslim extremists subscribe to. It's all terrorism -- the Christian version is just a whole lot subtler and more subversive...and not as many cars get blown up. But judgment and demoralization sometimes are worse than fear and destruction of property and life.

Not all Muslims are evil and depraved. Neither are all Christians! Some Muslims and some Christians work ardently for justice, for peace, for unity. Some Muslims and some Christians believe the best about people and hold hope for humanity. It's not naivete, it's a choice. We peacemongers don't have the wool pulled over our eyes -- why do you think we work so hard for peace?!? But what we don't do is what I see happening in this thread: we don't generalize and assume that, because the evil is sensational, it must be ubiquitous.

You Christians who say, "Islam is as Islam does" need to remember American slavery, cross-burning, the silence of the Church during the Holocaust, the Inquisition, Apartheid, Northern Ireland, and the Christian President who turns a blind eye to prisoner torture. You need to remember that the world looks at us and says, "Christianity is as Christianity does." If you don't want to be seen as hate-mongering religious extremists -- if you don't want Jesus portrayed that way through the actions of his followers -- you -- then you need to stop worrying about the speck in the eye of your Muslim neighbors and concern yourselves more with the log in your own eye.

You atheists need to stop using these atrocities to blame the religion. Instead, blame the people and hold them accountable for their own deplorable actions. Hold them accountable to the the religion to which they claim adherence.

[lovedmb]

Originally Posted by St0ne

The "majority" aren't using their combined voice very effectively, in fact they seem to be doing little more than sitting on their..... hands.

And that is what I've noticed as well. There is seemingly (I say seemingly, as I only have the slanted US news media to go by) no outrage at this behaviour from the "majority". I'm not one to jump on the "that religion is wrong and evil" bandwagon, but I am really wondering any more if the "fringe" groups aren't really the peaceful, quiet Muslim's vs. the violent hateful ones.

[Ody]

Originally Posted by Steve

I know plennty about who the "prophet" really was, a murderer, hypocrite, and the orginator of a religion that is the oposite of liberating etc for its people and those who come in contact with it.
One only needs to read the history and actions of this man to decide who or what he really was, it is the islamic extreamists around now who best represent him.

SO WAS CHRISTIANITY! JUST ASK THE MUSLIMS AROUND 1000 AD!

Actually the practices of the sultanate and the ottoman empire was some of the most enlightened around, until the 1800's roughly.

[lovedmb]

You Christians who say, "Islam is as Islam does" need to remember American slavery, cross-burning, the silence of the Church during the Holocaust, the Inquisition, Apartheid, Northern Ireland, and the Christian President who turns a blind eye to prisoner torture. You need to remember that the world looks at us and says, "Christianity is as Christianity does." If you don't want to be seen as hate-mongering religious extremists -- if you don't want Jesus portrayed that way through the actions of his followers -- you -- then you need to stop worrying about the speck in the eye of your Muslim neighbors and concern yourselves more with the log in your own eye.

Frubals on your head.
Well said.

[d.]

Originally Posted by Darkdale

These Cartoons were NOT racist. They were a fair commentary on Islam,

but they were. i can understand it's not obvious outside of scandinavia, but let me assure you they were more or less intended as an attack on danish muslims. muslims in denmark are the social group who to "the ordinary dane" represents immigrants - who are blamed for pretty much anything that's wrong in denmark at the moment. these caricatures go hand in hand with prolific right-wing groups who frequently say things like "throw all muslims out of denmark".

these aren't glorious freedom of speech heroes - more like faurisson characters, who hail freedom of speech when it suits their own ends, and want censorship when it comes to opposing views.

the caricatures in themselves can perhaps, out of context and with a bit of good will, be interpreted as a 'fair commentary on islam'. maybe.

[kevmicsmi]

Originally Posted by sojourner

You Christians who say, "Islam is as Islam does" need to remember American slavery, cross-burning, the silence of the Church during the Holocaust, the Inquisition, Apartheid, Northern Ireland, and the Christian President who turns a blind eye to prisoner torture. You need to remember that the world looks at us and says, "Christianity is as Christianity does." If you don't want to be seen as hate-mongering religious extremists -- if you don't want Jesus portrayed that way through the actions of his followers -- you -- then you need to stop worrying about the speck in the eye of your Muslim neighbors and concern yourselves more with the log in your own eye.

.

That would be analogous to saying Germans can never critisize nations who commit genocide, or southerners can not critisize people who are racists. The statement holds absolutely no water because unfortunately none of us were alive for the crusades, etc. Christians were silent during the holocaust? I thought that is what you wanted! Maybe they were fixated on that log in their own eye?