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  #1  
Old 01-23-2006, 04:58 PM
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Default Sin vs. Transgression

In the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve didn't know good from evil. The knowledge of good from evil is requisit for sin. Adam transgressed the law, he didn't sin.
Quote:
James 4:17 - To him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
This is one of the many reasons the LDS Church doesn't believe that we are responsible for Adam's "original sin". We can't be responsible for Adam's sin if he didn't sin at all. Anyway, being responsible for someone else's sin is just stupid.
Quote:
2nd Article of Faith - We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adams transgression.
Note the use of transgression.
Quote:
Bruce R. McConkie - Knowledge of good and evil is an essential element in the commission of sin, and our first parents did not have this knowledge until after they had partaken of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
In the Garden Adam and Eve were in COMPLETE inocence, unable to commit sin.
On a side note, what I have picked up from the rest of Christianity is that Adam wasn't a very good person (Please correct me if I'm wrong). Adam was a great prophet of the Lord and should be respected as such.
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  #2  
Old 01-23-2006, 05:07 PM
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I'll gladly engage in this discussion if you first understand that it's not "blaming us for his/her sin", but rather it's the consequence of sin. See Why should we die because of anothers sin? to get further understanding on the matter.

~Victor
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Last edited by Quiddity; 01-23-2006 at 05:33 PM..
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  #3  
Old 01-23-2006, 05:21 PM
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First off and completely off topic...I've been meaning to tell you for a while that I love your Avatar.

As far as my take on Sin vs. Transgression...

Adam transgressed the law WHEN he sinned. Or at least this is how I see things. Adam and Eve disobeyed God...they sinned. The definitions of Sin and Transgression kind of go hand in hand.

(Taken from my trusty Corel Wordperfect 10 Dictionary)

Quote:
transgress >verb go beyond the limits set by (a moral principle, standard, law, etc.).
-DERIVATIVES transgression >noun transgressive >adjective transgressor >noun.
-ORIGIN Latin transgredi 'step across'.
And...

Quote:
sin1 >noun 1 an immoral act considered to violate divine law. 2 an act regarded as a serious offense. >verb (sinned, sinning) commit a sin.
-PHRASES live in sin informal, dated (of an unmarried couple) live together.
-DERIVATIVES sinless >adjective.
-ORIGIN Old English, probably related to Latin sons 'guilty'.
I feel Adam BOTH sinned and transgressed.

Quote:
This is one of the many reasons the LDS Church doesn't believe that we are responsible for Adam's "original sin". We can't be responsible for Adam's sin if he didn't sin at all. Anyway, being responsible for someone else's sin is just stupid.
Adam simply sinned against God. He and Eve were the first to disobey. And by their sin...eating from the tree of knowledge...giving in to temptation...going against the will of God...sin was introduced into the world and thus became part of the flesh.

I have never been taught nor have I interpreted in my own study of Genesis that WE are responsible for THEIR sin. We each are responsible for our own sin against God. I won't be judged for your sin or my mother's sin or the sins of all of those before me. I am held accountable for MY sin as Adam and Eve were held accountable for their own sin.

They were simply the first to sin...the first to bring sin to the flesh.

Quote:
In the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve didn't know good from evil. The knowledge of good from evil is requisit for sin. Adam transgressed the law, he didn't sin.
They didn't...until they ate the fruit from the tree of knowledge and then they DID know good from evil. They sinned against God. And as a result were cast out of the Garden of Eden. This is how I read their story in Genesis. And I see Adam as nothing more than the first man. I don't see him as a prophet or anything more than the first man and Eve the first woman.

That's what I get from Genesis.

Interesting thread...looking forward to reading the responses...
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  #4  
Old 01-23-2006, 05:51 PM
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I believe there is a difference between the spirit of a law and the letter of a law. Wouldn't you say that sometimes there are cases where by breaking commandments you are accomplishing a greater good, but you are still in the spirit of the commandment that was given? Take a doctor, for example. Many believe that working on Sunday is breaking the Sabbath, but the doctor, in performing his duties, is accomplishing a greater good. People need doctors - even on Sunday.

Adam and Eve were given two commandments - they were told to be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. They were also told that they should not eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. In one version of the creation in LDS scriptures, after God gives this commandment, he gives a reason and presents a choice:
Quote:
Moses 3:13 - But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it, nevertheless, thou mayest choose for thyself, for it is given unto thee; but, remember that I forbid it, for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Adam and Eve are presented with free agency in the garden. They have a decision to make. They can either live eternally in the garden and not procreate. The other choice is to partake of the fruit of the tree, be cast out of the garden, and go through life - learning - in order to become like God.

Understanding the Fall of Adam is vital to understanding Christianity in my opinion. The story of Adam and Eve sets the stage for the Atonement of Jesus Christ.

Last edited by jonny; 01-23-2006 at 05:55 PM..
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  #5  
Old 01-23-2006, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonny
Understanding the Fall of Adam is vital to understanding Christianity in my opinion. The story of Adam and Eve sets the stage for the Atonement of Jesus Christ.
I don't disagree with this statement at all but I still see the fall of Adam (and Eve) revolving around one little word...sin. Through their disobedience, they brought sin to the flesh.

Do you agree with OP in that they did not sin but merely transgressed? Not trying to pick at all...just trying to understand if this is how most LDS believe on this topic and also to see if I understand your post (which, you know...I may have misread ).
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  #6  
Old 01-23-2006, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawny0826
I don't disagree with this statement at all but I still see the fall of Adam (and Eve) revolving around one little word...sin. Through their disobedience, they brought sin to the flesh.
I don't believe that Adam and Eve sinned, because I think that it is impossible to sin without knowing the difference between good and evil. I think they disobeyed the instructions God gave them, but until they ate of the forbidden fruit, they did not have a clear understanding that disobedience was, in fact, sinful.

I guess it's kind of like the situation you might run into with a two-year-old child. If you were to say, "Don't touch the stove. It's hot!" and that child reached up and touched the stove anyway. I don't see that child as having "sinned," but I do see him as having disobeyed. And even though I don't see him as having sinned, he is still going to have to experience the consequences of his disobedience (i.e. getting burned).

Quote:
Do you agree with OP in that they did not sin but merely transgressed? Not trying to pick at all...just trying to understand if this is how most LDS believe on this topic and also to see if I understand your post (which, you know...I may have misread ).
This would be an accurate way of stating the LDS position. In fact, our second Article of Faith states, "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression."

We believe that, while Adam's and Eve's transgression brought sin and death into the world, Christ atoned for their wrongdoing, just as He atoned for our wrongdoings. Consequently, we believe that we have each inherited -- from Adam and Eve -- the propensity or inclination to sin. We just don't believe that we actually are born into a state of guilt. That's why we don't practice infant baptism. We believe that a person must have reached an age when he can be expected to understand what sin is before he can actually be sinful.

The Book of Mormon puts it like this: "For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father."

I guess the best way for me to put it is that we believe we become sinful by sinning. We do not become sinful by being born. By the time we are old enough to voluntarily choose to do something we know is wrong, our sinful nature will have taken hold. It is only by consciously choosing to "yield to the enticing of the Holy Spirit", that we can overcome our inately sinful nature.
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Last edited by Katzpur; 01-23-2006 at 09:57 PM..
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  #7  
Old 01-23-2006, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawny0826
I don't disagree with this statement at all but I still see the fall of Adam (and Eve) revolving around one little word...sin. Through their disobedience, they brought sin to the flesh.

Do you agree with OP in that they did not sin but merely transgressed? Not trying to pick at all...just trying to understand if this is how most LDS believe on this topic and also to see if I understand your post (which, you know...I may have misread ).
I think that the only difference between a sin and transgression is the amount of knowledge that one has. I don't believe it was possible for Adam and Eve to sin while they were in the garden of Eden, so in that sense I don't believe it was a sin. Were they disobedient? Yep, but they were obedient at the same time.

The Fall of Adam (and Eve ) brought sin into the world. What it interesting to me is WHY it had to be this way. In my opinion, the story of Adam and Eve puts the source of sin, misery, and all that other bad stuff in the hands of Satan. Satan tempted Eve to partake of the fruit, which led to Adam and Eve being cast out of God's presence. Many people like to demonize Eve for this decision, but, since she didn't have knowledge between good and evil, I prefer to place the blame in the hands of Satan.

Anyway, all of us experience the effects of the fall of Adam, but I don't believe we will be held accountable for Adam's transgression. I believe that babies are born pure, without sin.

We are taught to become like little children. While in the garden, Adam and Eve were like little children. We are to become like Adam and Eve were by overcoming the Fall through the Atonement.

Last edited by jonny; 01-23-2006 at 09:56 PM..
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Old 01-23-2006, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katzpur
I don't believe that Adam and Eve sinned, because I think that it is impossible to sin without knowing the difference between good and evil. I think they disobeyed the instructions God gave them, but until they ate of the forbidden fruit, they did not have a clear understanding that disobedience was, in fact, sinful.

This would be an accurate way of stating the LDS position. In fact, our second Article of Faith states, "We beliee that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression."

We believe that, while Adam's and Eve's transgression brought sin and death into the world, Christ atoned for their wrongdoing, just as He atoned for our wrongdoings. Consequently, we believe that we have each inherited -- from Adam and Eve -- the propensity or inclination to sin. We just don't believe that we actually are born into a state of guilt. That's why we don't practice infant baptism. We believe that a person must have reached an age when he can be expected to understand what sin is before he can actually be sinful.

The Book of Mormon puts it like this: "For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father."

I guess the best way for me to put it is that we believe we become sinful by sinning. We do not become sinful by being born. By the time we are old enough to voluntarily choose to do something we know is wrong, our sinful nature will have taken hold. It is only by consciously choosing to "yield to the enticing of the Holy Spirit", that we can overcome our inately sinful nature.
Well, although we may see things a little differently...I don't think our views are so way off, here. And I appreciate the elaboration. I've never really thought of Christ's atonement to cover past sins...but it's an interesting thought to ponder. I do agree that we are held accountable for own sins and that Christ is the atonement for our sin. I don't think that I'm held accountable for the sins of Adam and Eve but I believe that they introduced sin to the flesh. I can't really get outside of my mental box on the whole sin vs. transgression deal but regardless...I find it very interesting to learn the differences in our interpretations of Genesis.

I don't believe in infant baptism either. We do baby dedications. In fact, my fourteen month old, Ruthie will be having hers very shortly. (Sorry for the diversion, there. )
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Old 01-23-2006, 09:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonny
I think that the only difference between a sin and transgression is the amount of knowledge that one has. I don't believe it was possible for Adam and Eve to sin while they were in the garden of Eden, so in that sense I don't believe it was a sin. Were they disobedient? Yep, but they were obedient at the same time.

The Fall of Adam (and Eve ) brought sin into the world. What it interesting to me is WHY it had to be this way. In my opinion, the story of Adam and Eve puts the source of sin, misery, and all that other bad stuff in the hands of Satan. Satan tempted Eve to partake of the fruit, which led to Adam and Eve being cast out of God's presence. Many people like to demonize Eve for this decision, but, since she didn't have knowledge between good and evil, I prefer to place the blame in the hands of Satan.

Anyway, all of us experience the effects of the fall of Adam, but I don't believe we will be held accountable for Adam's transgression. I believe that babies are born pure, without sin.

We are taught to become like little children. While in the garden, Adam and Eve were like little children. We are to become like Adam and Eve were by overcoming the Fall through the Atonement.
Thanks for the elaboration. I agree with very much of this.
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  #10  
Old 01-23-2006, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawny0826
I don't believe in infant baptism either. We do baby dedications. In fact, my fourteen month old, Ruthie will be having hers very shortly. (Sorry for the diversion, there. )
Sounds like it might be similar to what we do in the LDS church. Babies are given a "name and a blessing" in Sacrament meeting after they are born.
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