Muslim Apostasy (gospel, followers, grace, blood, hell)

[linwood]

What is the penalty within Islam for leaving the faith for another worldview?
An example would be a Muslim converting to Christianity.

I`ve just had 4 Muslims tell me the penalty is death.
Is there truth to this?

I ran across a thread on another forum discussing this and it seems to have broken down into a flame war between Christians and Muslims before the point could really be addressed.

[Green Gaia]

Did they give you a verse from the Koran supporting that? I've never heard of this before.

[robtex]

I have heard that too from Muslims living in Austin. I met a missionary who went to Mecca to preach Christianity in private. He told me of a sign in arabic and english that said the sign said "All Christians beyond this point will be killed." My few Islam friends here say an atheist can never recieve the graces of Allah again.

I heard of a an atheist in Houston who told an atheist group down there that the penalty in Iran for atheism is death, however it is "off the books". The country propably has a bigger impact than the religion itself though. Saudi seems to be a really big culprit for killing and other crimes of humanity of non muslims.

footnotes:
http://www.persecution.org/Countries/saudi_arabia.html
http://www.worthynews.com/news-featu...ion-watch.html
http://www.cswusa.com/Reports%20Page...audiArabia.htm

[Popeyesays]

Originally Posted by linwood

What is the penalty within Islam for leaving the faith for another worldview?
An example would be a Muslim converting to Christianity.

I`ve just had 4 Muslims tell me the penalty is death.
Is there truth to this?

I ran across a thread on another forum discussing this and it seems to have broken down into a flame war between Christians and Muslims before the point could really be addressed.

"A letter to Mu'awiya.
There is still time left for you to see the realities which are bright enough to be see and derive the benefit from the knowledge thus gained. But you are following in your ancestors' footsteps in trying to prove falsehood to be true, in seducing people with lies and false hopes, in claiming a thing far above your merits and capacities and in grasping things which religion prohibits to you.
This is so because you want to escape from truth, from religion and from Allah. And you have denied and refused to accept realities which, if you realize, are more important to you than your own flesh and blood. These are the realities about which you have been repeatedly told and often been made to understand.
Now tell me, if you disown truth and religion what will remain with you but plain and evident apostasy and utter reprobation, and if you refuse to accept the truth as told by Allah and the Holy Prophet (s) what you will believe in is but foolish, superstitious and irrational fears. Therefore, do not give away to doubts (about the truth which Islam has proclaimed) and do not be mislead by schism into blind alleys. Beware that sinful temptation has drawn heavy curtains and the darkness they create in blinding you to your reason.
I received your letter. I do not know what to think about it. To me it appears to be an idiotic confusion of irrelevant ideas. Reconciliation, treaty and peace are not the things which you want to offer or to accept. What your letter contains is only disjointed words and meaningless phrases. It has been worded by somebody who has neither knowledge nor reasoning, who can neither offer anything nor invite an offer.
By writing such an idiotic letter you have placed yourself in the position of a man who has been stuck in a sack or one who is groping his way in darkness.
It will be a great misfortune for Muslims if you become their despotic ruler after me, be it the whole Islamic State or any small part of it. May Allah protect them in such a calamity. Allah forbids that I appoint you a governor of any province or willingly allow you to control destinies of Muslims of any part of the State.
Be reasonable and act rationally because if you miss this chance you will find yourself in a very serious situation when faithful Muslims attack you and what can be accepted of you today will not then be acceptable."
(Ali b. Abi Taalib, Letters from Nahjul Balaagh)

"Volume 4, Book 52, Number 251:
Narrated 'Ubaidullah bin Abi Rafi:
I heard 'Ali saying, "Allah's Apostle sent me,
Az-Zubair and Al-Miqdad somewhere saying,
'Proceed till you reach Rawdat Khakh. There
you will find a lady with a letter. Take the letter
from her.' " So, we set out and our horses ran at
full pace till we got at Ar-Rawda where we
found the lady and said (to her). "Take out the
letter." She replied, "I have no letter with me."
We said, "Either you take out the letter or else
we will take off your clothes." So, she took it out
of her braid. We brought the letter to Allah's
Apostle and it contained a statement from Hatib
bin Abi Balta a to some of the Meccan pagans
informing them of some of the intentions of
Allah's Apostle. Then Allah's Apostle said, "O
Hatib! What is this?" Hatib replied, "O Allah's
Apostle! Don't hasten to give your judgment
about me. I was a man closely connected with
the Quraish, but I did not belong to this tribe,
while the other emigrants with you, had their
relatives in Mecca who would protect their
dependents and property . So, I wanted to
recompense for my lacking blood relation to
them by doing them a favor so that they might
protect my dependents. I did this neither because
of disbelief not apostasy nor out of preferring
Kufr (disbelief) to Islam." Allah's Apostle, said,
"Hatib has told you the truth." Umar said, O
Allah's Apostle! Allow me to chop off the head
of this hypocrite." Allah's Apostle said, "Hatib
participated in the battle of Badr, and who
knows, perhaps Allah has already looked at the
Badr warriors and said, 'Do whatever you like,
for I have forgiven you."
(Bukari Hadith)

Apostasy is a religious crime and the law in Islam requires a fatwah signed by several Mullahin to prescribe a penalty. Fatwah's canbe countered, Fatwah's can duel with one another, Fatwah's can take years to be enforced if at all. Apostasy in fundamentalist Islamic circles can be punished by death, but it would not be easy to impose.

Regards,
Scott

[MdmSzdWhtGuy]

ibn Warraq's "Why I am not a Muslim" notes that the penalty for apostacy, or leaving the faith is death, and has always been that way.

B.

[TashaN]

Originally Posted by robtex

I have heard that too from Muslims living in Austin. I met a missionary who went to Mecca to preach Christianity in private. He told me of a sign in arabic and english that said the sign said "All Christians beyond this point will be killed." My few Islam friends here say an atheist can never recieve the graces of Allah again.

I lived in Mecca for a while and it seems that you misunderstood the sign.

Actually the sign is in the road before you enter to Mecca and it split to two roads:

- The main road will lead you to the gate of the Holy Mosque "Ka'ba" directly and you can read (for muslims only).

- The other one will lead you too to Mecca but not near the moaque and you can read in that sign (for non-Muslims) which your friend was trying to convience you it says that christians will be killed !!!

Actually it's nonsense because Quran pointed out that christians are the most people near and close to Muslims.

[82] Strongest among men in enmity to the Believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans (the arabs pagans of the tribe of Quraish who were in war with Muslims);and nearest among them in love to the Believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.


[83] And when they listen to the revelation received by the Messenger, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray (the christians):

"Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.

(Quran 5:82-83)

Therefore, If you want to know anything do a quick search in Quran and definitely you will find your answer there and if you couldn't find it so I'll be glad to help you in doing so.


Peace ...

[jonny]

Originally Posted by linwood

What is the penalty within Islam for leaving the faith for another worldview?
An example would be a Muslim converting to Christianity.

I`ve just had 4 Muslims tell me the penalty is death.
Is there truth to this?

I ran across a thread on another forum discussing this and it seems to have broken down into a flame war between Christians and Muslims before the point could really be addressed.

This penalty is why we were forbidden from teaching Muslims from certain countries when I was a missionary. We wanted to share the gospel, but the church was more concerned for the safety of their lives. From the instructions that I recieved it seemed like it was dependant on the country that they originated from. Not all cultures saw death as the penalty I assume.

[YmirGF]

These are very good answers to your original question Linwood.
As stated, depending on the country, and subject to Fatwa's being issued, the penality is clearly Death, and likely by stoning.

I am rather amused to see that The_Truth neatly side-stepped the question.

Fascinating way for a religion of peace to treat its ex-followers don't you think?
Strangely you would think that a true religion of peace would wish people well, who no longer believed. For example:

"Gee, we are so sorry things didn't work out for you here. We still love you though and wish you all the best on your personal journey. Come back and see us soon. You are always welcome, any time. We won't try and force you to change your mind, but if you want to talk or just say hello, we will be happy to chat. God loves you."

[TashaN]

Originally Posted by YmirGF

I am rather amused to see that The_Truth neatly side-stepped the question.

Hi dear YmirGF,

No, I didn't side-stepped the question but Popeyesays already explained it and the answer of course is "Death" if you want to know it and here is again the answer which i thought is enough.

Originally Posted by Popeyesays

Apostasy is a religious crime and the law in Islam requires a fatwah signed by several Mullahin to prescribe a penalty. Fatwah's can be countered, Fatwah's can duel with one another, Fatwah's can take years to be enforced if at all. Apostasy in fundamentalist Islamic circles can be punished by death, but it would not be easy to impose.

Moreover, they will try to give him the chance to change his mind and that would take a long time. Therefore, i havn't heard of Muslims countries who killed people because they changed thier religion so far and if there is some, so it wouldn't be for plain religious reasons as it was the case long time a go but for political reasons because most of Muslims governments nowadays don't follow the real teaching of Islam.

BTW, you have to know that normal unauthorised people can't just meet the guy and kill him like what is happening sometimes with misguided Muslims who have misconceptions about Islam who think that they can make fatwa by themselves and kill whoever they want.

Anymore Question dear YmirGF?

[Seyorni]

I'm not familiar with the Q'uran, but I've seen passages quoted that call for executing apostates.