Trinity (Jesus, Moses, Earth, creation, atheist)

[Nehustan]

I was brought up in a faith holding to the Nicean creed. On the occasion of my confirmation, which coincidentally I have now recanted in writing, and the lessons leading up to it the subject of trinity obviously arose. Then and subsequently when I have asked for a concise explanation of the trinity, how it figures cosmologically, scientifically etc., I was often told 'Its a mystery.' which is little more that saying 'I Tego Arcana Dei!'. The thing is I have found that The God I have a faith in does not shroud in mystery, he makes things very very simple. In fact he has laid out the details so clearly that even atheists can begin to see 'struth. It seems to me that if one understands something truly, by the very nature of understanding it, one can communicate it. If one needs to resort to 'Its a mystery' that usually amounts to 'I actually don't understand it myself, but I'm damned if I'm going to admit that to you, you little pipsqueak!'

So I'm interested in what the Trinity means to people, and how they manage to explain it to themself and others without resorting to 'It's a mystery!' Also I do understand basic kinship terms like Father, and Son, so before anyone tries to say 'Its simple, there's God and Jesus is his Son.' That's not an explanation, it's an unqualified statement.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by Nehustan

I was brought up in a faith holding to the Nicean creed. On the occasion of my confirmation, which coincidentally I have now recanted in writing, and the lessons leading up to it the subject of trinity obviously arose. Then and subsequently when I have asked for a concise explanation of the trinity, how it figures cosmologically, scientifically etc., I was often told 'Its a mystery.' which is little more that saying 'I Tego Arcana Dei!'. The thing is I have found that The God I have a faith in does not shround in mystery, he makes things very very simple. In fact he has laid out the details so clearly that even atheists can begin to see 'struth. It seems to me that if one understands something truly, by the very nature of understanding it, one can communicate it. If one needs to resort to 'Its a mystery' that usually amounts to 'I actually don't understand it myself, but I'm damned if I'm going to admit that to you, you little pipsqueak!'

So I'm interested in what the Trinity means to people, and how they manage to explain it to themself and others without resorting to 'It's a mystery!' Also I do understand basic kinship terms like Father, and Son, so before anyone tries to say 'Its simple, there's God and Jesus is his Son.' That's not an explanation, it's an unqualified statement.

Having a simple faith doesn't make it any easier. You still have to prove God to the atheist. How is that simple? This isn't an attempt to cover up my lack of giving you an adequate explanation of the Trinity. This is only to show that anyone that holds faith in God believe in mystery in some for or another.

Here is a good historical reference to start. Perhaps some of their explainations can help: Trinity and the Fathers

But for my contribution I will say that God has the ability to be in more then one place. If you question the Trinity then that should be questioned as well. How do you explain to someone that God can do such a thing? I can't and perhaps someone more eluminating will do a better job.

~Victor

[Aqualung]

It doesn't mean anything to me. I find the trinity wholly incomprehensible, and I don't believe in it. (I bet that helps you out a lot, huh? )

[Moses the God Archetype*]

You are wrong, it is a qualified statement because jesus himself makes that statement numerous times in the good book if properly researched that right way you must begin to understand the transpersonal other.To me the trinity is based on lie to decive the masses into beliveing a certin part the whole truth instead of the total picture of the GODHEAD.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by Aqualung

It doesn't mean anything to me. I find the trinity wholly incomprehensible, and I don't believe in it. (I bet that helps you out a lot, huh? )

So you don't believe in it because it's "wholly incomprehensible"? I hope you see where this is heading.

~Victor

[Nehustan]

Originally Posted by Victor

Having a simple faith doesn't make it any easier. You still have to prove God to the atheist. How is that simple? This isn't an attempt to cover up my lack of giving you an adequate explanation of the Trinity. This is only to show that anyone that holds faith in God believe in mystery in some for or another.

Here is a good historical reference to start. Perhaps some of their explainations can help: Trinity and the Fathers

But for my contribution I will say that God has the ability to be in more then one place. If you question the Trinity then that should be questioned as well. How do you explain to someone that God can do such a thing? I can't and perhaps someone more eluminating will do a better job.

~Victor

I think that faith is not what I am talking about, it is simple, you either believe or you don't, pretty binary. I think I am referring to religious knowledge more than faith, and to my mind religious knowledge should be simple. If one believes in God, it serves no purpose to 'blind people with (religious) science' if people come across things that appear paradoxical it can do a few things, destroy their 'faith' if their 'faith' was based on knowledge and thus not really faith at all, make them change their 'faith' when actually they should just acquire more knowledge. or make them become seekers of knowledge...oh and I suppose say things like 'It's a mystery!'

For me the paradox you posit about God in more than one place is answered simply. Place implies dimension which implies quantifiable which implies measurable, thus that which existed prior to the creation is 'without place', i.e. beyond. Not bound by the contrictions of the created world, whether that world is seen and known or unseen, and thus unknown.

Originally Posted by Moses the God Archetype*

You are wrong, it is a qualified statement because jesus himself makes that statement numerous times in the good book if properly researched that right way you must begin to understand the transpersonal other.To me the trinity is based on lie to decive the masses into beliveing a certin part the whole truth instead of the total picture of the GODHEAD.

regarding 'GODHEAD' manifest within the creation i.e. Dalai Lama, Siddartha, Krishna, I think my delineation of the absolute beyond illusrates my opinion of such concepts.

[Victor]

Originally Posted by Nehustan

I think that faith is not what I am talking about, it is simple, you either believe or you don't, pretty binary. I think I am referring to religious knowledge more than faith, and to my mind religious knowledge should be simple.

You lost me here.. What exactly is "more then faith"? There is no such thing. Faith builds upon reason. You can only increase more in your faith. Please clarify.

Originally Posted by Nehustan

If one believes in God, it serves no purpose to 'blind people with (religious) science' if people come across things that appear paradoxical it can a few things, detroy their 'faith' if their 'faith' was based on knowledge and thus not really faith at all, make them change their 'faith' when actually they should just acquire more knowledge. or make them become seekers of knowledge...oh and I suppose say things like 'It's a mystery!'

It almost sounds like you are saying that you either have faith or reason/knowledge. Why not both?

For me the paradox you posit about God in more than one place is answered simply. Place implies dimension which implies quantifiable which implies measurable, thus that which existed prior to the creation is 'without place', i.e. beyond. Not bound by the contrictions of the created world, whether that world is seen and known or unseen, and thus unknown.

I am not speaking in dimensional terms here. If I was, then God would be unable to duplicate himself in one the same dimension. I don't hold such a belief. God is not bound by time or dimensions.

~Victor

[Victor]

Originally Posted by YmirGF

Yep, and Yup.

Tell me Victor, from the Catholic perspective, how is the Holy Ghost aspect related? I wouldnt pretend to speak for Christians on this.

Holy Ghost = Holy Spirit
Holy Spirit = The 3rd person in the Trinity

~Victor

[Bangbang]

Here are some explanations of the Trinity. Have fun!

http://home.nyc.rr.com/mysticalrose/trinity.html

http://www.watchtower.org/library/ti/article_04.htm

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by Victor

So you don't believe in it because it's "wholly incomprehensible"? I hope you see where this is heading.

~Victor

No.