What’s In It For God? (moral, Creator, choices, choice)

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Skavau

Hello Katzpur, do you mind if I step in?

Not at all. Welcome to the forum, by the way.

This brings up the usual answer to the question of suffering, which essentially underlines: "God is a mystery." The problem with this is that it is a get out clause and misses the point of suffering and points out to me that you, yourself aren't sure (in some regards) what the diety, that you believe in - really is. You aren't in full knowledge of plan and in full knowledge of his idea for our world that this God is supposedly supposed to have for us.

Actually, I don't see God as quite as much of a mystery as your every-day run-of-the-mill Christian. That may sound presumptuous, but it isn't meant to be. No, I don't fully understand Him, but I don't simply dismiss all of the tragedy in the world by saying, "God is a mystery," either. My religious beliefs (right or wrong) provide some insight into God's "motivation" which satisfy my need to know why life doesn't always seem fair.

In direct response, I shall give you a common example used for philosophical purposes:

- Imagine a scenario where there is a school. This school has a secretive headmaster who is commonly percieved as all-loving, all-moral and in total control of his school. This headmaster has never been seen by any pupil or any staff member.

- The staff in the school commonly molest and attack the children on a daily basis. Many children there have been killed as a result of this. It's a problematic system, to say the least.

- Is it reasonable to assume that the headmaster has a divine plan for all of his pupils which is morally right in every way? Is it reasonable to suggest that the suffering the children go through has a good cause in the end and that it is all for character building?

- We could logically presume that this school is likely to produce a load of psychopaths who are morally weak and defunct both in confidence and spirituality. If you look at this on a broader scale, you can see that in the history of the world - millions of good people have suffered and died and loads of evil individuals have lived lifes in luxury. It seems odd to suggest this is all for our own benefit.

Obviously, there's no such thing as a perfect analogy. I'm not going to try to pick your analogy apart; I hope you will treat mine with like respect:

When my children were babies, I had the habit of taking them to the doctor on a regular basis. Almost every time I did, they were subjected to pain. Someone would stick a big long needle in their thighs and they would scream in pain. Why would I do such a thing? I'm sure that, to the extent they were able, they wondered this. It must have seemed so random and pointless to them. One minute I'd be playing with their cute little toes and cuddling them and kissing their soft little faces, and the next, I'd be allowing someone to hurt them. Millions of children each year are treated this way by supposedly loving and moral parents. Some of these children become quite sick as a result of these shots, and yet that doesn't stop their parents from turning around a few months later and repeating the abuse all over again.

My understanding of the necessity of this pain far, far exceeded that of my children. To them it was pointless and even cruel. I'm willing to admit that God's knowledge exceeds mine by an even greater margin.

Kathryn

[Scuba Pete]

Originally Posted by cardero

Why does God become concerned if we sin or lead an immoral life?

Why am I concerned when my son hurts himself? Oh yeah, I helped to create the boy!

Originally Posted by cardero

What does God get out of us being good?

The same thing I get out of my son scoring an "A" on his finals! Yay son!!!

Originally Posted by cardero

What is the incentive for God if others are saved?

I lost my son once. He was four and went next door to visit "Uncle Red". I almost had a heart attack looking for him. You can't imagine how happy I was when I finally found him! Well, God understands how I felt.

Originally Posted by cardero

Has God done everything to express His discomfort towards our peculiar behavior?

Everything he needs to have done. After all, he might be our father but he isn't over-protective. He lets us decide for ourselves.

Originally Posted by cardero

What exactly are the stakes involved in the safety of our soul?

We either get to hang with God for eternity or not. Our choice the entire way! I can't wait to see the room he has made for me!

[greatcalgarian]

Originally Posted by Katzpur

You talk about being rescued from a sweet little kitty like me? And then you threaten me with a visit from s2a? I think we need to call a truce!

Didn't know you are so scared of s2a. He is only abrasive in language, but underneath, he is a very kind person.

[Skavau]

Actually, I don't see God as quite as much of a mystery as your every-day run-of-the-mill Christian. That may sound presumptuous, but it isn't meant to be. No, I don't fully understand Him, but I don't simply dismiss all of the tragedy in the world by saying, "God is a mystery," either. My religious beliefs (right or wrong) provide some insight into God's "motivation" which satisfy my need to know why life doesn't always seem fair.

That sounds reasonable to some extent. .

When my children were babies, I had the habit of taking them to the doctor on a regular basis. Almost every time I did, they were subjected to pain. Someone would stick a big long needle in their thighs and they would scream in pain. Why would I do such a thing? I'm sure that, to the extent they were able, they wondered this. It must have seemed so random and pointless to them. One minute I'd be playing with their cute little toes and cuddling them and kissing their soft little faces, and the next, I'd be allowing someone to hurt them. Millions of children each year are treated this way by supposedly loving and moral parents. Some of these children become quite sick as a result of these shots, and yet that doesn't stop their parents from turning around a few months later and repeating the abuse all over again.

Indeed, this is an analogy which works with our own limitations as human beings. We all (for the most part) objectively recognise the collective need to protect against diseases that might hurt us in the future. This is however, a precautionary measure though. We get these jabs because there is a chance that in the future, that without them we may catch the diseases they protect against and thus fall ill and potentially die.

If you're applying this to God, does this mean we understand what he is trying to do or does it mean that we suffer just in case of something else?

The problem with your analogy there is that it is completely reasonable action and a rational action to take to ensure that your children do not get ill from diseases in the long term. However, with God - the situation in hand is very different in the sense that we don't actually know anything about his ideas and plans for us, and thus forth - my analogy tried to address this with another scenario which could be objectively observed.

If the explanation in hand here is to defend the actions of an apparent God by using another situation where suffering is used to bring an objective good into humanity, then it does a good job of that - and I give you frubals for doing such. .

My conclusion with this though is that such a scenario you gave is only valid if we understand the idea of God's plan and if this God in question is not all-powerful. The very fact that he is all-powerful means that he can skip the suffering aspect and move on to the pleasurable aspect.

[Ernestine]

God created man, the universe, the earth and everything upon it. As Owner he certainly has a right to demand of us whatever he wishes. We can abide by his laws or suffer the consequences. Who, man or spirit, can question Him? It's been shown time and time again that when we observe his laws we live better lives. The things that some look upon as restrictions are actually safeguards. Isn't this exactly what we have come to expect from a loving parent?

[Skavau]

God created man, the universe, the earth and everything upon it. As Owner he certainly has a right to demand of us whatever he wishes. We can abide by his laws or suffer the consequences. Who, man or spirit, can question Him?

Hello there Ernestine. .

He does have that right (presuming he/she/it exists), but that doesn't neccessarily make him just in those decisions. The very fact that I apparently have a free mind capable of rational decisions gives me right to question God. Is a child not allowed to question his or her dictatorial parents?

It's been shown time and time again that when we observe his laws we live better lives.

Which God are you talking about anyway? I wouldn't bet any form of higher diety shows a direct correlation between quality of living and belief.

The things that some look upon as restrictions are actually safeguards.

Explain.

Isn't this exactly what we have come to expect from a loving parent?

I wouldn't imagine a loving parent would be such a mysterious figure with unknown intentions.

[blueman]

God's primary purpose is for all to be saved through Jesus Christ and to receive everlasting life. He loves us so much that he wants to be involved and have a relationship with creation. He wants to be the center of our lives and be praised and glorified as a result. The consequences are devastating if you take Him at His Word. Those who reject God wil be eternally separated from Him. If you feel He is bluffing in the regard, you really have nothing to lose then, right? This is really not a game, but a true reality that one's soul is on the line when all is said and doneand ultimately determines where that soul will reside. He also loves us so much that He will never force you to follow Him. He clearly gave us free will to choose the direction we take.

[Popeyesays]

What's in it for God?

I haven't the faintest idea. What God thinks is beyond me, if it can be called thought at all?
I know what's in it for me. Each day I pray:
"I bear witness, O my God, that Thou hast created me to know Thee and to worship Thee. I testify at this moment to my poverty and to Thy wealth, to my powerlessness and to Thy might. There is none other God but Thee, the Help-in-Peril, the Self-Subsisting."

Regards,
Scott

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by Skavau

If you're applying this to God, does this mean we understand what he is trying to do or does it mean that we suffer just in case of something else?

I am applying it to God, but it would be difficult for me to explain how, without going into my belief system in some depth.

The problem with your analogy there is that it is completely reasonable action and a rational action to take to ensure that your children do not get ill from diseases in the long term. However, with God - the situation in hand is very different in the sense that we don't actually know anything about his ideas and plans for us, and thus forth - my analogy tried to address this with another scenario which could be objectively observed.

Actually, as I said before, I believe I do understand His plan for us, how this plan originated and where it will ultimately take us. I'm not trying to convince you that I'm right. I'm just saying that this knowledge (or belief, if you like) helps me to make sense of what would otherwise be meaningless, ramdom tragedy.

If the explanation in hand here is to defend the actions of an apparent God by using another situation where suffering is used to bring an objective good into humanity, then it does a good job of that - and I give you frubals for doing such. .

Thank you. Essentially, that's what I was trying to get across.

My conclusion with this though is that such a scenario you gave is only valid if we understand the idea of God's plan and if this God in question is not all-powerful. The very fact that he is all-powerful means that he can skip the suffering aspect and move on to the pleasurable aspect.

And my conclusion is that there is a purpose to suffering. Yes, God could easily make sure we never had to experience anything negative in our lives, but it would be counter to His overall purpose, just as I could have skipped innoculating my children, thereby sparing them from the pain it produced. I'm not trying to say that making us suffer is His way of protecting us from something even worse. I guess I could best describe my belief by saying that we become stronger when subjected to the refiner's fire. We learn patience, humility, compassion, strength of character, gratitude and a multitude of other qualities that we probably wouldn't develop if God had just decided to "skip the suffering aspect."

Kathryn