As a Christian, what specifically do you believe? And why? (Jesus Christ, tradition) - Page 3

Katzpur · #21 10-23-2005, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Truth

Hi Katzpur,

First of all i'm sorry to get my nose into this thread which supposed to be for christians only but i'm just curious because a LDS christian once told me that they didn't worship Jesus but they say he is the son of God, the savior.

Moreover, they only worship God "the father".

What do you say about that? and is there many sects within LDS itself or this is only depend in the personal beliefs for that christian?

(( I'm not here to debate but just to ask because i'm curious only.

))

Hi, Truth.

Yes, I believe it was Aqualung who said that. We Latter-day Saints do believe in the subordination of the Son and the Holy Spirit to the Father. In other words, unlike most Christians, we don't use the word "co-equal" to describe them. But we do believe that all three of them comprise the "Godhead" and are, therefore, "God." And it would be a mistake to say that we worship only one third of the Godhead. Perhaps what Aqualung was trying to say is that we recognize God the Father as the supreme being. We believe that, in addition to being Christ's Father, He was also His God. We always address our prayers to God the Father, not to Jesus. We petition the Father "in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ," since we believe the Son to be a mediator between us and the Father. I hope that helps clarify things. (Incidentally, Aqulung has been LDS for only a couple of months. She is remarkably knowledgable considering how long she has been a member of the Church, but I've been a member all my life -- 57 years -- so just give her a little bit of time to catch up. I'm sure she'll overtake me in time.

)

SPLogan · #22 10-23-2005, 05:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Immortal Awakened

do christians base their faith in extra-biblical religious documents? how can one know that this document is accurate?

I am not an authority on this but the following is my understanding:

do Christians "base" their faith on anything? If the word "base" is a verb, then no- because faith is "basically" a gift from God, not by "doing" anything. God creates faith within people- therefore no one can boast about having faith. It's a gift. (I'm talking on a spiritual level)

Ephesians 2:8-10
8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Fundamentally, a Christian's faith isn't "based" on the Bible or any other book or logical process; it is merely confirmed therein. However, the Bible is basically different than all other writings- it is Scripture, uniquely inspired by God and authoritative. God does use the Bible to create saving faith in people. It is His Word to His people.

2 Timothy 3:16
16All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

On the same spiritual level on which faith is created, God enlightened the writers of Scripture. Their words are His Word. There are several ways that Christians have determined what writings are inspired by God (or are "canonical"). It basically has to do with who wrote them, their credentials, and/or the overall consistency among the documents.

All that to say:

Extra-Biblical documents, such as the Nicene Creed are not authoritative, like the Bible. However, they are useful summations Biblical doctrine- provided that they do truly represent the beliefs espoused in the Bible.

Creeds are useful in reminding us Christians what we really believe because we are so prone to forget and to live inconsistently with our beliefs. (sort of like a company reciting its mission statement to remind them of their larger goals - as opposed to the smaller goals of getting to sit by a window or something)

- I hope that wasn't too wordy, boring, or off base.

Immortal Awakened · #23 10-23-2005, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SPLogan

I am not an authority on this but the following is my understanding:

do Christians "base" their faith on anything? If the word "base" is a verb, then no- because faith is "basically" a gift from God, not by "doing" anything. God creates faith within people- therefore no one can boast about having faith. It's a gift. (I'm talking on a spiritual level)

Ephesians 2:8-10
8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Fundamentally, a Christian's faith isn't "based" on the Bible or any other book or logical process; it is merely confirmed therein. However, the Bible is basically different than all other writings- it is Scripture, uniquely inspired by God and authoritative. God does use the Bible to create saving faith in people. It is His Word to His people.

2 Timothy 3:16
16All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

On the same spiritual level on which faith is created, God enlightened the writers of Scripture. Their words are His Word. There are several ways that Christians have determined what writings are inspired by God (or are "canonical"). It basically has to do with who wrote them, their credentials, and/or the overall consistency among the documents.

All that to say:

Extra-Biblical documents, such as the Nicene Creed are not authoritative, like the Bible. However, they are useful summations Biblical doctrine- provided that they do truly represent the beliefs espoused in the Bible.

Creeds are useful in reminding us Christians what we really believe because we are so prone to forget and to live inconsistently with our beliefs. (sort of like a company reciting its mission statement to remind them of their larger goals - as opposed to the smaller goals of getting to sit by a window or something)

- I hope that wasn't too wordy, boring, or off base.

the problem that i find is that many christians do not actually agree on the nicene creed, and even condemn entire denominations to hell; that may be one of the reasons that im agnostic; what faith should i embrace, if they fight and disagree so much?

Scuba Pete · #24 10-23-2005, 08:41 PM

According to the scriptures SPLogan, Faith is not only a gift, but it is a work as well!

I am Christian because there is an empty tomb. I don't claim to understand all of the mysteries of God and Jesus, but this one simple fact helps me to put my lack of understanding in perspective.

The Spirit is our counselor: the one who makes hard things plain. He only works as we try to follow him. The more we follow, the deeper our understanding. Ephesians makes it plain that WE are to add to our faith: it's not something that happens without effort. God gives the increase, but only as we submit to his will.

Scuba Pete · #25 10-23-2005, 08:45 PM

As for condemning others... the last chapter of John puts that into perspective.

John 21: 20Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, "Lord, who is going to betray you?") 21When Peter saw him, he asked, "Lord, what about him?"
22Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me." 23Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?" NIV

A relationship to Jesus is personal: it is NOT a corporate thing. The second to last statement of the Nicene Creed completely ruins it for me. It is indeed of man and not of God.

Katzpur · #26 10-23-2005, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NetDoc

As for condemning others... the last chapter of John puts that into perspective.

As do Jesus' words from Mark. Here, the Apostles rather self-righteously told Christ, "Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us." Jesus' answer was: "Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part." We don't all have to see eye to eye on things to all be Christians. Our Savior desired unity among those who claimed to love Him.

TashaN · #27 10-24-2005, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katzpur

Hi, Truth.

Yes, I believe it was Aqualung who said that. We Latter-day Saints do believe in the subordination of the Son and the Holy Spirit to the Father. In other words, unlike most Christians, we don't use the word "co-equal" to describe them. But we do believe that all three of them comprise the "Godhead" and are, therefore, "God." And it would be a mistake to say that we worship only one third of the Godhead. Perhaps what Aqualung was trying to say is that we recognize God the Father as the supreme being. We believe that, in addition to being Christ's Father, He was also His God. We always address our prayers to God the Father, not to Jesus. We petition the Father "in the name of His Son, Jesus Christ," since we believe the Son to be a mediator between us and the Father. I hope that helps clarify things. (Incidentally, Aqulung has been LDS for only a couple of months. She is remarkably knowledgable considering how long she has been a member of the Church, but I've been a member all my life -- 57 years -- so just give her a little bit of time to catch up. I'm sure she'll overtake me in time.

)

Oh, i never noticed, you just seems to be in your 20's

Thanks for the information and i think i'll call you Mom again when i discuss with you because almost you are in my Mom's age now.

SPLogan · #28 10-24-2005, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Immortal Awakened

the problem that i find is that many christians do not actually agree on the nicene creed, and even condemn entire denominations to hell; that may be one of the reasons that im agnostic; what faith should i embrace, if they fight and disagree so much?

I agree that Christians (like me) are the biggest obstacle to the growth of the Church. I argue and fight with my fellow believers- I say hurtful, false things to them. I'm arrogant, proud, and selfish. I am a sinner- literally. But that's exactly why I need Jesus and His Church (his bride). He lived the life I should have lived and died the death I should have died.
The Church is made up of jerks like me- sinners who need a savior. I just deal with the hypocrisy because I am also a hypocrite. It would be hypocritical for me to avoid hypocrites.

Basically, being an arrogant jerk is prerequisite to being a Christian. If you are not a sinner, you won't fit in with a Christian community anyway.