A question for Christians (and others who believe in heaven) (church, experience)

[michel]

Originally Posted by retrorich

If you believe you will go to heaven when you die, why would you fear dying and try to prevent it from happening?

I don't fear dying - maybe the phisycal pain of it though. Try to prevent it from happening ?
I tried to make it happen.

[Todd]

Originally Posted by joeboonda

According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour; yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ, which is far better; Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. Phillipians 1:20-24 Therefore we are alway confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord; (For we walk by faith, not by sight We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord. II Corinthians 5:6-8

Well put. I hold to this belief also.

Most Christians I know (including myself) don't fear death. We might fear the pain right before death, but not death itself. Even Jesus feared the physical pain before death, but he didn't fear death itself because he new he was going to paridise in heaven.

[laughingcoyote]

I'm not a Christian, except by birth through my Quaker parents. I have faced death and really thought it was coming as I plunged into unconsciousness 10,000 feet in the Sierra Sawtooth mountains with pneumonia. Strange to say, my death had no significance. What I did feel was a profound sense of loss for the people that I was departing from, followed by the hiss of oxygen into my face (how many hours later I have no idea), at the bottom of the mountain. Yes, departure is what it felt like.

[Snowbear]

Originally Posted by retrorich

... why would you fear dying and try to prevent it from happening?

I don't.
I'm looking forward to it.

[robtex]

Be cool to get a muslim(s) perspective on this question. Good thread Rich.

[s2a]

[Apologies for the tangential post, but some mischaracterizing comments just can't go unanswered . ;-)]

Hello Merlin,

You said:

Atheism is a very hard religion to be sure about.

I am sure that atheism is not a religion by any definition or standard. If you are unsure as to what atheism is or is not, here is some previous clarifying commentary I lent on the subject here:
[ http://www.religiousforums.com/forum...851#post195851 ]
...with follow-up here:
[ http://www.religiousforums.com/forum...193#post197193 ]

Conceding the low probability that time and opportunity may afford you to read the provided referenced posts (offered as a preservation of bandwidth within this thread) , you could pursue the alternate course of simply and concisely illustrating how atheism fits within the dictionary definition of religion, as such:

religion n.
"1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader."
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language

...and....

"1: a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny
2: institution to express belief in a divine power"
Source: WordNet

-------------------------

If atheism is a religion, then please enumerate and specifically provide:

1) Of which/whom supernatural power that atheists revere and regard as creator and governor of the universe.
2) Of which/whom supernatural power that atheists worship.
3) Of which/whom spiritual leader's teachings of beliefs/values that atheists are adherent
4) Of which/whom supernatural power(s) that atheists claim as controlling human destiny
5) The named atheist institution that expresses belief in a divine power.

If you find available examples lacking, then perhaps you'll do yourself (and everyone else) the courtesy of not repeating absurd inferences (ie., "atheism = religion") that have no basis in merit or fact.

it is not unusual for people who would like to prove religion and/or God does not exist to ask these impossible questions.

Perhaps, but I'm not one of those people. I retain no interest in "disproving" any god or religion. I simply do not accept the claims of religion that suggest supernatural cause/effect explanations or god(s) as existent in a natural cosmos.

The "questions" are only "impossible"...if "I don't know" is unsuitable to your sensibilities and reason as a qualifying and acceptable answer.

Clearly nobody knows as an absolute certainty what will happen after we are all dead.

I personally know a few god-fearing Christians that would strongly disagree with your assessment, and it would seem that there are plenty of Muslim fundamentalist jihadists that suggest otherwise as well.

If, for example, we simply were moved to a 'higher plane of existence', then we would experience much more wonderful things and be freed from most of the restrictions under which we now live. Would that be heaven? Who knows?

No one "knows", because there's no credible empirical evidence to support the notion of a "higher plane of existence". Claims and beliefs are neither evidence nor proof...except as evidence of claims and beliefs themselves. Only faith can provide existential certitude of such a concept.

For what it is worth, you are statistically better off believing in God than being an atheist.

Um, there is a 99.9999% probability that your sentiment has no value, or logical merit at all (unless I received a nickel every time someone made an allusion to "Pascal's Wager" - then I would at least have a lot of nickels).

An answer as to why your premise is flawed and logically worthless, with relevant (and referenced) third-part rebuttals/refutation/debunkings within the linked post below:
[ http://www.religiousforums.com/forum...833#post185833 ]

[Merlin]

Originally Posted by retrorich

If you believe you will go to heaven when you die, why would you fear dying and try to prevent it from happening?

I am amazed people do not see atheism as a religion. Being an agnostic is not. they acknowledge that something might exist, even if they think it probably does not.

But to believe absolutely (with not proof) that NOTHING exists needs faith; and a very deep faith. Nobody can be absolutely sure that nothing supernatural exists, but some people believe with all their hearts that this is true. That is a religious belief.

Statistics are much easier. There are only 2 possibilities.

1. There is a God
2. There is no God

There are 2 human positions

A. I believe
B. I do not believe.

If someone believes then they have a 50:50 chance of being right and finding 'salvation'.

If someone does not believe then they are damned whether there is or is not a God. In other words they have reduced their chances from 50% to zero.

That is why you must have a seriously strong faith to believe absolutely in nothing.

Merlin

[Merlin]

Originally Posted by s2a

[Apologies for the tangential post, but some mischaracterizing comments just can't go unanswered . ;-)]

Hello Merlin,

You said:


I am sure that atheism is not a religion by any definition or standard. If you are unsure as to what atheism is or is not, here is some previous clarifying commentary I lent on the subject here:
[ http://www.religiousforums.com/forum...851#post195851 ]
...with follow-up here:
[ http://www.religiousforums.com/forum...193#post197193 ]

Conceding the low probability that time and opportunity may afford you to read the provided referenced posts (offered as a preservation of bandwidth within this thread) , you could pursue the alternate course of simply and concisely illustrating how atheism fits within the dictionary definition of religion, as such:

religion n.
"1. Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
2. A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
3. A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader."
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language

...and....

"1: a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny
2: institution to express belief in a divine power"
Source: WordNet

-------------------------

If atheism is a religion, then please enumerate and specifically provide:

1) Of which/whom supernatural power that atheists revere and regard as creator and governor of the universe.
2) Of which/whom supernatural power that atheists worship.
3) Of which/whom spiritual leader's teachings of beliefs/values that atheists are adherent
4) Of which/whom supernatural power(s) that atheists claim as controlling human destiny
5) The named atheist institution that expresses belief in a divine power.

If you find available examples lacking, then perhaps you'll do yourself (and everyone else) the courtesy of not repeating absurd inferences (ie., "atheism = religion") that have no basis in merit or fact.



Perhaps, but I'm not one of those people. I retain no interest in "disproving" any god or religion. I simply do not accept the claims of religion that suggest supernatural cause/effect explanations or god(s) as existent in a natural cosmos.

The "questions" are only "impossible"...if "I don't know" is unsuitable to your sensibilities and reason as a qualifying and acceptable answer.


I personally know a few god-fearing Christians that would strongly disagree with your assessment, and it would seem that there are plenty of Muslim fundamentalist jihadists that suggest otherwise as well.


No one "knows", because there's no credible empirical evidence to support the notion of a "higher plane of existence". Claims and beliefs are neither evidence nor proof...except as evidence of claims and beliefs themselves. Only faith can provide existential certitude of such a concept.


Um, there is a 99.9999% probability that your sentiment has no value, or logical merit at all (unless I received a nickel every time someone made an allusion to "Pascal's Wager" - then I would at least have a lot of nickels).

An answer as to why your premise is flawed and logically worthless, with relevant (and referenced) third-part rebuttals/refutation/debunkings within the linked post below:
[ http://www.religiousforums.com/forum...833#post185833 ]

You say "No one "knows", because there's no credible empirical evidence to support the notion of a "higher plane of existence".

Quite right. Where is the credible empirical evidence to support the notion of no "higher plane of existence"

How is it that 'no proof' only works against believers in God, and never against blievers in nothing. It is also just that, a belief, not a fact.

[Merlin]

Originally Posted by retrorich

If you believe you will go to heaven when you die, why would you fear dying and try to prevent it from happening?

Isn't it intereresting how my casual comment hit such a raw nerve with so called atheists? They must be insecure in their faith..

After all, if there is no God, why engage in these debates. It would be a real sterile waste of time. Of course all religions have evangelists, and we seem to have tripped over at least one.

Incidentally, the definition of a religion is any belief system related to the afterlife which requires faith to believe in it (i,e, for which there is no proof). Atheism meets this criterion.

[karmel19]

Well, as a Baha'i my understanding is that "heaven" is not a literal place, but a condition of closeness to God, and "hell" is not a literal place either, but a condition of remoteness from God. It is possible to be in either condition in this world as well as in the world to come. As far as fear of death--well, the Baha'i Writings use an analogy of the baby growing in the womb of the mother; it is growing eyes, ears, legs, arms, and everything that it will need for life in this world, but because it is not yet ready to use these things, it cannot know yet what they are for. In the same way, part of the purpose of our life in this world is to acquire virtues or spiritual qualities. These virtues: truthfulness, love, compassion, generosity, mercy, justice, forgiveness, etc., etc., are the qualities that will be needed for life in the world to come, and if we have not acquired them, when we arrive in that world, we will be like a child who is born blind, deaf, or crippled. Therefore, if I fear death or wish to delay it, it would be because I fear not having developed my spiritual qualities to the best of my ability. However, fortunately we are told that we continue to progress in "all the worlds of God" through His bounty and mercy.