God Debate (Jesus, moral, Creator, beliefs, choice)

[pandamonk]

Originally Posted by ottoman

'If there is any argument you wish me to go into more detail to explain, or otherwise, let me know and i will. And also, if there is any argument which you wish to argue against, i will be happy to show the strength and validity of each argument'
Lets see you in action then pandamonk. The stage is all yours.

You have to first put forth some arguments against mine before I take centre stage,lol

[pandamonk]

Feeling rather ignored again.

[Hazel]

...extreme confusion...*gathers thoughts*...sorry about that I am very tired.

The whole God is perfect therefore there is no God is absolute balderdash.

God is perfect. Since we are not perfect we cannot comprehend true perfection. God created a perfect universe with people. These people sinned...mainly as a result of Satan's deception. God being perfect (and loving) gave humans the choice to do this. The world became imperfect because of sin, as a result of sin...Therefore a very perfect God created a perfect universe that was corrupted by humans who chose to give up a life of perfection. Because God is perfect and therefore holy beyond our reckoning we were seperated from him...cut off. He being perfect (and loving) sent his son to die...because Jesus is perfect he could take the sin-debt for us.

All of this is getting way off subject, but is necesary, I don't believe you can disprove your statements by other religious beliefs...or anything short of the truth.

[Hazel]

Sorry, one more thing.

God is not a person. If you don't believe in spiritual beings than there is no way for you to comprehend this. Arguments based on God being a person are rubbish.

[Aqualung]

I'll take on your arguments, pandamonk. I hope I can help you understand where I'm coming from.

Originally Posted by pandamonk

Perfection vs creation argument

Version 1
1. If God exists, then he is perfect.

Okay.

Originally Posted by pandamonk

2. If God exists, then he is the creator of the universe

Well, Jesus was the actual "creator" of the universe, but he did it under God's direction.

Originally Posted by pandamonk

3. A perfect being can have no needs or wants

Not true. Perfect beings can have needs and wants. His want is for all of his spirit children (everybody who has ever had a body and some who haven't) to progress and to become like him. His perfect love for everybody makes it so he wants us to grow and progress and to become as like him as possible.

Originally Posted by pandamonk

4. If any being created the universe, then it must have had some need or want to do so

Yep. And I don't really understand why you think a perfect being can't have a need or a want.

Any questions with that one? I'll take these section by section, for ease of debating.

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by pandamonk

Version 2
1. If God exists then he is perfect

True.

Originally Posted by pandamonk

2. If God exists he is the creator of the universe

Well, Jesus was the actual creator, but he did it under God's direction.

Originally Posted by pandamonk

3. If a being is perfect, then whatever he creates must be perfect

Not true. While it may not be perfect to your standards, it was exactly what was necessary to fulfill his wants (see previous post to find out what his wants are.) He coudn't have a "perfect" universe to do that, but "perfection" is rather subjective. It was perfect for what he wanted to accomplish.

Originally Posted by pandamonk

4. But the universe(although complex) is not perfect

Oops. I kind of explained that under #3.

How's that one? Any questions?

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by pandamonk

The immutability vs creation argument

1. If God exists, then he is immutable
2. If God exists, then he is the creator of the universe
3. An immutable being cannot at one time have an intention and then at a later time not have that intention
4. For any being to create anything, prior to the creation he must have had the intention to create it, but at a later time, after the creation, no longer have the intention to create it
5. Thus, it is impossible for an immutable being to have created anything (from 3 and 4)
6. Therefore, it is impossible for God to exist (from 1, 2, and 5)

I don't even get this one. Are you saying that God can't do anything? So you for some reason think that we beleive that god must, for some reason, always have the exact same desires, from day to day, hour after hour, and it must be impossible for him to fulfill those? Am I misunderstanding, because that seems like a strange argument. I've never heard that one before, so am I interpreting it right?

[Hazel]

Here's one for you.

We are all imperfect beings living in an imperfect universe.

We therefore have imperfect views of life in general

Hence we cannot understand anything that is perfect and all our arguments against his existence would be skewed by our imperfection.

[Aqualung]

Originally Posted by pandamonk

The immutability vs all-loving argument
1. If God exists, then he is immutable

Okay, but to an extent. He is only immutable on a large scale. His purpose for us never changes, but he obviously can change things (giving the isrealites the mosaic law, for example.)

Originally Posted by pandamonk

2. If God exists, then he is all-loving

Sure.

Originally Posted by pandamonk

3. An immutable being cannot be affected by events

God is not immutable in the sense that he never is affected. He is affected by lots of things, but look at it this way. Say you are a sinner. God still loves you. He is not "affected" by that event in that he will stop loving you. If you go around sinning all the time, however, and then one day you sit down and half-heartedly ask to have your sins forgiven, he won't do that. You have not truely repented. If a person who has truely repented of their sins sits down and does that same thing, you will be forgiven. (I'm not sure if that's even relevant...) That illustrates in a fashion that God is changed by what you do. Does that make any sense at all? I didn't really know where you were going with the argument, so I coudn't answer it all too well. Sorry, but ask more questions, and it will help me to get my points down.

[Aqualung]

1. If God exists, then he is transcendent
Not true.
2. If God exists, then he is a person (or a personal being)
3. If something is transcendent, then it cannot exist and perform actions within time[/quote]These are some other defenitions of transcendent. If you think that he is transcendent in that he can't do things in time, then you arguing things that I, as a christian, don't beleive.
Surpassing others; preeminent or supreme.
Lying beyond the ordinary range of perception