God Debate (Jesus, moral, Creator, beliefs, choice)

[pandamonk]

Originally Posted by Prima

Ah, I believe I finally understand what you're saying.

Rephrased, your first arguement is: can God make something more powerful than Himself?

The magnet would not be God, It would have a stronger physical strength than god but would not be omnipotent(able to do anything).

Originally Posted by Prima

Now, on the idea of omniscence. I am a weaver, and the equivalent of God. I know everything there is to know about what I'm doing - how a cloth will turn out depending on what I do (what loom size, what shuttle, etc) But do I still have room to choose? certainly. I know everything. I know that if I choose a red color to go here, this is how it will look.

Omniscience(infinite knowledge)knows everything there is to know. Not just about what they are doing but about what they will do infinitely into the future and infinitely into the past. Knowing everything that has and will happen and all the stuff in between. Knowing everything there is to know about everything! So if you know everything u will do in the future right from the begining of ur existence (infinitely in the past) then you have always known what you are going to do. Even if you change your mind, you would have known right from the start you wer going to change you mind. Everything is predestined to God so he is powerless to change it and if he thinks he has he hasnt because it was going to tunr out like that anyway. It's confussing i know. It is impossible even. That is why, i feel, a gods existence is impossible

[Prima]

With the magnet - God is still able to do anything, including choosing whether or not he can do something! If he chooses to not be able to do something, he can't because he chose not to. But he can also choose to be able to. And then you get into that he can choose to choose to be able to do something...

Omniscence:
Well, there you have a few choices
- We have mislabeled God as omniscient, and he knows everything about everything except Himself
- Our idea of God has not been fully realized yet
- We are trying to understand God on human terms and it is impossible
- God chooses to not know something, or chooses to ignore it.

[pandamonk]

Originally Posted by fromthe heart

I'm SO sorry some 'professing christian" said that to you.

that "professing christian" is my girlfriend of two and a half years.

Originally Posted by fromthe heart

I would say something in your chemical makeup just went off course

yes that's the scientific approach.

Originally Posted by fromthe heart

perhaps that is what is causing you to question

no my girlfriend was causing me to question. She was told over and over that she should not be with a non believer and came very close to splitting up with me over it. I believe that is when i started becoming interested in God debates. Firstly i looked at christianity and all it had to offer and just couldn't accept it, not because i didn't want to or I was rebelling, but because all it taught seemed impossible. So i looked into it and found that i was, in my eyes and many others eyes, right. I invested in a bible, and three other books and have proved, to myself and a few friends at least, that christianity is false. I also have a few videos proving the bible to be false too. And I now can never believe in a god unless I'm am proved with substantial proof for it/him/her.

[Tawn]

Originally Posted by pandamonk

Omnipotence(all powerful) i believe is impossible

reason: can god or any other, supposedly, omnipotent being make 2 magnets that are too powerful for god/that being to separate. if yes that god/being is not omnipotent as it cannot separate the magnets, if no that god/being is not omnipotent as it cannot make the magnets?

A paradox proves nothing im afraid..

In fact I answered a similar question on whether God could create a rock to heavy for him to lift. Let me dig it up...

If God's powers are infinite, then he could supposedly make an infinitely heavy rock. Likewise his 'lifting' ability would also be infinite.
The complication comes from the fact that the human mind cannot comprehand or properly analyse infinity. It is beyond our capabilities.
In order to NOT be able to life the rock however, gods abilties to create a heavy rock would have to be BEYOND those of his abilties at lifting. Since infinity is infinite there can be nothing beyond it. It can go as far as is necessary.
Therefore since infinity is equal to infinity we can safely assume that whatever God can create, he can lift.
The alternative approach is that God can lift 'anything'. 'Heavyness' is not a limiting factor for a being of ultimate power. In other words he would find it just as easy to life a 'light' rock as he would a 'heavy' rock. No matter how heavy he makes it, it is just as easy to lift.

Can you see a similar answer for your analogy?

[Tawn]

Originally Posted by pandamonk

Omniscience(infinite knowledge)knows everything there is to know. Not just about what they are doing but about what they will do infinitely into the future and infinitely into the past. Knowing everything that has and will happen and all the stuff in between. Knowing everything there is to know about everything! So if you know everything u will do in the future right from the begining of ur existence (infinitely in the past) then you have always known what you are going to do. Even if you change your mind, you would have known right from the start you wer going to change you mind. Everything is predestined to God so he is powerless to change it and if he thinks he has he hasnt because it was going to tunr out like that anyway. It's confussing i know. It is impossible even. That is why, i feel, a gods existence is impossible

This is a very good argument.. and the weaver analogy is hardly approapriate.. you are still liable to make mistakes and experiement 'to see what happens'.. and after all you havent seen the future.

[pandamonk]

Originally Posted by Prima

With the magnet - God is still able to do anything, including choosing whether or not he can do something! If he chooses to not be able to do something, he can't because he chose not to. But he can also choose to be able to. And then you get into that he can choose to choose to be able to do something...

but in choosing not to be able to do something is that not choosing not to be omnipotent and therefore not to be a god?

Originally Posted by Prima

Omniscence:
Well, there you have a few choices
- We have mislabeled God as omniscient, and he knows everything about everything except Himself

But God to humans is omniscient and if he isn't he cannot be a god. So by saying this you are admitting that your "God" is not a real god acording to the definition.

Originally Posted by Prima

- Our idea of God has not been fully realized yet
- We are trying to understand God on human terms and it is impossible

these, i believe are the only 2 possible if you want to believe in god but in saying that you are admitting that we do not/cannot know God, adopting an agnostic position

Originally Posted by Prima

- God chooses to not know something, or chooses to ignore it.

if God chose not to know something would that not be him choosing not to be omniscient and therefore not to be a god?

[pandamonk]

Originally Posted by Tawn

[font=Arial]A paradox proves nothing im afraid..

In fact I answered a similar question on whether God could create a rock to heavy for him to lift. Let me dig it up...

Can you see a similar answer for your analogy?

that is the exact place i took it from, i presented that argument to a Christian once who said something about gravity so changed it so gravity wouldn't affect it.

I see your point about infinite power and that you can't have more power than infinite power. And i grant that you are very intelligent. I've never heard or thought of an argument agaisnt that. Ok so take the example of the square-circle then. God must be able to make/draw/whatever a square-circle. Tell me how. If you don't know then, it proves my point with what i said in the first post. The leader sending soldiers into battle thing. I know you are an Atheist but still. Aww I'm tired, It's 00.30 and I have a very important exam at 9 tomorrow. lol

[pandamonk]

Originally Posted by Tawn

This is a very good argument.. and the weaver analogy is hardly approapriate.. you are still liable to make mistakes and experiement 'to see what happens'.. and after all you havent seen the future.

Thank you. I don't understand what you mean

Originally Posted by Tawn

you are still liable to make mistakes and experiement 'to see what happens'

. If you mean God is liable to make mistakes, that is impossible, God is perfect.

Originally Posted by Tawn

and after all you havent seen the future

if you mean God hasn't seen the future, then, I know he hasn't but he still knows it. If you meant me personally to both then I'm sorry but I don't have a clue what you mean, lol.

[chuck010342]

Originally Posted by pandamonk

This is aimed at believers in a god.

and this is amied at an atheist

Originally Posted by pandamonk

God

also known as ABBA ask my why if you are interested.

Originally Posted by pandamonk

A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.

I like this definition.

Originally Posted by pandamonk

Omnipotence(all powerful) i believe is impossible

I can believe their are flying oranges circuling my head but is that true? (depends on what kind of drugs you are doing lol)

Originally Posted by pandamonk

reason: can god or any other, supposedly, omnipotent being make 2 magnets that are too powerful for god/that being to separate. if yes that god/being is not omnipotent as it cannot separate the magnets, if no that god/being is not omnipotent as it cannot make the magnets?

good, very good you give reasons for your views.

anyway this is an old argument. This is like the old argument that if God is omnipotent then can he create a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it? (I like the Homer Simpson version: "if Jesus is so powerful can he cook a burrito so hot he cannot eat it?")

the reason why this doesn't work as a valid argument is because; according to defenition it is not possible to do. The question needs to be corrected it is impossible to answer because it is not possible to do in essance it is a stupid question.

Originally Posted by pandamonk

omniscience (all knowing) i also believe is impossible if god is to have free will/act/think/do anything basically.

reason: if god was omniscient he would know everything he was going to do right from the start of his/its existence therefore anything it did do would be predetermined and even god a, supposedly, omnipotent being could not change what he knew would happen. therefore god could not have free will and is just, basically, acting with no thought etc. and if god knew everything what is the point of praying? he knows what you're going to say.

Wy do you think Jesus said "do not make lengthy prayers"?

Originally Posted by pandamonk

originator and ruler of the universe:

ok the universe is too complicated, according to most christians, not to have a creator so must have been designed and build by god. But if god designed and built the universe does that also not make him/it too complicated not to have a creator so who created him/it? a super god? but would it/him not be too complicated, so who created him/it? a superdooper god? well who....you know where this is going. So is it not easier to say the universe was not designed or created? and maybe just accept the big bang theory or something?

I have no idea what you are saying here could you clarify it for me?

just something to think about [/quote]

[pandamonk]

Originally Posted by chuck010342

also known as ABBA ask my why if you are interested.

yeh why? lol

Originally Posted by chuck010342

I can believe their are flying oranges circuling my head but is that true? (depends on what kind of drugs you are doing lol)

lol nice one yeah, you can believe what you want. thing is some people force what they believe onto others and i want that to stop, so i show them where, i think, they've gone wrong.

Originally Posted by chuck010342

good, very good you give reasons for your views.

yeah i hate when people just say something without giving a reason or proof. They just say anything and expect you to believe it for no reason.

Originally Posted by chuck010342

anyway this is an old argument. This is like the old argument that if God is omnipotent then can he create a rock so heavy that he cannot lift it? (I like the Homer Simpson version: "if Jesus is so powerful can he cook a burrito so hot he cannot eat it?")

I know it is an old argument but i thought it was a rather good one.lol i've never seen that on the simpsons.i'll have to look out for it. it's rather funny.

Originally Posted by chuck010342

the reason why this doesn't work as a valid argument is because; according to defenition it is not possible to do. The question needs to be corrected it is impossible to answer because it is not possible to do in essance it is a stupid question.

it is impossible to do for us yes but not for a, supposedly, omnipotent (meaning infinite power/can do anything) being ie a god
but as Tawn pointed out the argument does fall flat on its face and he gives the reason.

Originally Posted by chuck010342

I have no idea what you are saying here could you clarify it for me?

ok i was saying that many Christians have the argument "the universe is too complicated to not have a creator. So due to the complicatedness, it has a creator." and I'm saying "due to the complicatedness of the creator, it also needs a creator and the creator of that creator would also need a creator etc etc."so I'm saying isn't it more likely that the universe was created some other way "The Big Bang" for example?