God Debate (Jesus, moral, Creator, beliefs, choice)

[chuck010342]

Originally Posted by pandamonk

Where can I go from your spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the Heavens, you are there; If I make my bed in the depths, you are there. If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea,(Psalm 139:7-13) This shows omnipresence, including within space and time. The far side of the sea is within our world, within our space and with our time!
"Am I only a God nearby," declares the LORD, "and not a God far away? Can anyone hide in secret places so that I cannot see him?" declares the LORD. "Do not I fill heaven and earth?" decares the LORD.(Jeremiah 23:23,24)In this "the LORD" is even saying he fills heaven and earth.
...that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath...(Deut.4:39)again God is on earth, within space
Jesus' omnipresence: “And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.” (Matthew 28:20b)He is with them, to the end of the age. Is that not saying he is with them in time?; “For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.” (Matthew 18:20)with them, and seeing as they are within space and time he must also be in space and time.

I think you just ignored the later part of my statement. when Jesus says "I am the door" do you look for a doornob on him? (as C.S. Lewis) used to say.

[michel]

Originally Posted by pandamonk

A limit which you cannot deny is that on God's ability to do evil. If God is all-good he cannot therefore do evil, and if he can he cannot be all-good.

I can deny; please stop telling me what I can and cannot do. If you don't mind, I will leave you to your mutterings.........

[pandamonk]

Originally Posted by michel

I can deny; please stop telling me what I can and cannot do. If you don't mind, I will leave you to your mutterings.........

Ok describe your "God" so we can at least have a debate. If you cannot describe your god, then you cannot possibly know your god, and therefore have no reason to believe in your god, from my point of view anyway, and if there is a reason, tell me.

Originally Posted by chuck010342

I think you just ignored the later part of my statement. when Jesus says "I am the door" do you look for a doornob on him? (as C.S. Lewis) used to say.

what, this?

Originally Posted by chuck010342

Like when in Exodus when the wizards of the Egyptians say "this is the finger of God" they don't really mean Gods physical finger.

How do you know what they "really mean"? You are assuming. Give me scriptural referance that states it is not really Gods finger. Are you trying to take it metaphorically, are you saying it did not actually happen? How do you decide what did and what did not actually happen, and how do you know that what you decide is right? And the whole doorknob thing, I do not know what C.S. Lewis actually means. Do you? If so, explain.

[pandamonk]

Originally Posted by michel

I can deny; please stop telling me what I can and cannot do. If you don't mind, I will leave you to your mutterings.........

Ok you can deny, but i will not accept your denial until you have shown me why, and how you came to that conclussion.

[Cynic]

Let me ask you theists something. Do you believe God is infinite?

[Sabio]

Originally Posted by Cynic

Let me ask you theists something. Do you believe God is infinite?

Yes, God defines infinite, it is part of His character. You cannot have infinity without God. God Himself is infinite, and His characteristics are unchanging and infinite.

What is your followup question? (I know you assumed that someone would answer in the ifirmitive).

Sabio

[michel]

Let me ask you theists something. Do you believe God is infinite?

I personally would not like to say whether God is infinite. We have no way of 'picturing' God - there is no need to. All we need to know is that God is all loving, and, as a Christian, that I love him.

[pandamonk]

Originally Posted by michel

Let me ask you theists something. Do you believe God is infinite?

I personally would not like to say whether God is infinite. We have no way of 'picturing' God - there is no need to. All we need to know is that God is all loving, and, as a Christian, that I love him.

Ok, finally, you have described your God. Ok, so he is all-loving, (infinitely loving), and cannot do or command anything of any harm, because he loves infinitely and cannot bare to see anything be hurt, especially by him. Now that you must agree. If not, you cannot, for one second, call your god anywhere near all-loving. And if not, you are talking absolute tripe, and nothing you say can be of any interest in this debate, so i will merely ignore you until you start talking sense.

I cannot see how an all loving good could ever punish, but for the sake of argument well say he can punish for evil acts.

An all-loving god, that punishes for evil acts, would not punish for disobeying his will, if they did not/could not know his will being disobeyed, is evil. If he did, he would be acting unjustly and it would be greatly unfair on the thing being punished, and an all-loving god could not act unfairly(unjustly), harming a, somewhat, innocent(as it did not see that what it was doing was wrong)being.

Now to look at the Bible. Hmm, don't have to look very far to find an instance of this unfair behavior. (Gen. 3:16-19)

(The Impossibility of God, pages 127-128)

THE PARADOX
OF EDEN

In the book of Genesis, we are told that God created Adam and Eve and put them in the garden of Eden. God also placed in the midst of the garden of Eden the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Adam and Eve were permitted to eat of any of the trees in the garden of Eden, but God commanded them not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. The forbidden fruit was eaten by Adam and Eve, and God punished them for their disobedience (see Gen. 3:16-19).
Notice that there is a difficulty with this story. Before they ate the forbidden fruit, Adam and Eve either knew that obeying God is good and disobeying God is evil, or they did not know this. If they knew it, then Adam and Eve would have already possessed the knowledge of good and evil...Adam and Eve would not very likely be tempted to eat the forbidden fruit because they would have nothing to gainby disobeying God. So, since God's command not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was an inadequate and unfair test of the righteousness of Adam and Eve if they already possessed the knowledge of good and evil, God acted unjustly by making this command if they already had the knowledge.
On the other hand, if Adam and Eve did not know that obeying God is good and disobeying God is evil, then they could not have known that it was wrong or evil to eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. So, since God punished Adam and Eve for doing something that they could not have known to be wrong or evil, God acted unjustly by punishing them. It would appear to follow that whether or not Adam and Eve knew that obeying God is good and disobeying God is evil, God acted unjustly. But, then, God is just at one time and unjust at another time.

God constantly acts in an un-loving way throughout the bible, as i showed in the first post here: Can the Christian god be all moral, Or even at all moral?

[Scott1]

pandamonk,

Don't you get tired of this endless preaching? The same tired arguments over and over again....

There is no "Paradox of Eden".... there is only ignorance of Biblical teachings.

[pandamonk]

Originally Posted by Scott1

pandamonk,

Don't you get tired of this endless preaching? The same tired arguments over and over again....

There is no "Paradox of Eden".... there is only ignorance of Biblical teachings.

Maybe I keep repeating the same arguments because people like you keep ignoring them. You say things like "there is only ignorance of Biblical teachings" but you never actually address my arguments. You never actually show me where I have went wrong. You never try to put me right. You just say I'm ignorant because I do not believe what you believe and pick faults in what you believe.