Objective morality

[ArtieE]

Originally Posted by 1robin

Yes it does lend weighg to the claim even for the alien claim.

I actually looked this one up. It is pathetic. I will supply the link to a site that explains it in detail including the false video and false identifications of normal objects in the videos. THere are some very intrigueing UFo reports, this ain't one.
THE JULY 11, 1991 MEXICO CITY UFO'S

Very interesting. Many witnesses even video tapes and so easily debunked. And yet people rely on two thousand year old second hand eyewitness stories to miraculous events and not even a video available. Why is that?

That is one of the major interpretations of Genesis. I have no firm position except what we have could not get here without a God.

Why not? To say such a thing you would have to have knowledge about exactly what happened at the Big Bang. Can you show me the evidence you have that a God must have done whatever He did?

Many many Christians with good reason still accept this as the truth. It is a far more complicated issue than I believe you understand and macro evolution is anything but proven. There is even a law in biology that would prevent it from ever begining.

Then you have disproved the Bible. There are about 6.5 million land animals on the planet today. Times two for male and female and you have at least 13 million land animals. Not to mention you would really need about 4000 of each animal go get a viable breeding population going. Either there were at the very least 13 million land animals on the Ark plus food and water which nobody could be capable of believing or there were fewer but then you would need macroevolution to make the rest of the species.

This is a reasonable point but things are not quite this simple. There is agreat diparity between the evidence for one and the other. That is why there is almost an infinate gulf in the desparity of believers in each. The bible has 25,000 historical artifacts and locations that have been verified.

Of course. There is no reason to claim that those who wrote the Bible didn't know their own geography. But have you noticed any evidence at all of any supernatural stuff going on? All extra-biblical sources don't even mention stuff that would have been sensational today. Only in the Bible. Wonder why?

UFOs do not have a single shred of hard evidence that can be evaluated.

True.

That is why false claims for what a Christian or the bible are made up like a flat earth.

Those are not false claims. It's simply ancient Hebrew cosmology. "The universe of the Hebrew Bible was made up of a flat disc-shaped earth floating on water, heaven above, underworld below.[6] Humans inhabited earth during life and the underworld after death, and the underworld was morally neutral;[7] only in Hellenistic times (after c.330 BCE) did Jews begin to adopt the Greek idea that it would be a place of punishment for misdeeds, and that the righteous would enjoy an afterlife in heaven.[8] In this period too the older three-level cosmology was widely replaced by the Greek concept of a spherical earth suspended in space at the centre of a number of concentric heavens.[6]" Wikipedia. At some point you just have to face the facts. Denial doesn't help at all.

As well as there are many studies that have shown the ark if literal was plenty big enough to house those animals. Where did you get 13 million. I am not saying it's wrong but where did it come from.

It comes from here: Reuters At least 6.5 million times 2 for male and female gives 13 million. It's simple: Since Christians say that one species can't turn into another species then you have to have at least this number. But you have to have 4000 of each species. "When inbreeding effects are included, estimates of MVP for many species are in the 1,000s. Based on a meta-analysis of reported values in the literature for many species, Traill et al. reported a median MVP of 4,169 individuals.[5]" Minimum viable breeding population

You mean as man becomes his own God and worships his intellegence or what he believes is intelligent. Christianity is still growing however an eventual decline as the end gets nearer is predicted in the bible. Every need man can provide for himself gives him more reson to make himself God until that last enemie that can't be conquored is found. Death. I have also noticed that as God is removed from our minds that almost every form of reprehensable behavior increases.

That is simply a lie. Everybody knows that the US where almost four out of five are Christian also has the highest crime rate in the world. The best countries to live in are consistently the most secular.

Look at the stats concerning the dates God was taken out of schools and teen pregnancy and drop out rates.

Then you don't know that "37% of women obtaining abortions identify themselves as Protestant, and 28% identify themselves as Catholic (AGI)."? Just google us abortion rates.

There were no school shooting when God was in school.

You just stop saying this stuff. Just google "christian school shooting".

I don't know about churches but Christianity is the second fastest growing religion there is and would be first if Islam wasn't mandatory at birth and they didn't have 9 children to our 2.

Fastest growing religion? I have no idea where you get this stuff. Here's the truth:

"Why Are Christians Leaving the Church? Turns Out It’s the Churches’ Fault

"So why are Christians — real, churchgoing Christians — leaving the faith later in life?"

"No single reason dominated the break-up between church and young adults. Instead, a variety of reasons emerged. Overall, the research uncovered six significant themes why nearly three out of every five young Christians (59%) disconnect either permanently or for an extended period of time from church life after age 15.

You can see Kinnaman’s six reasons here.

In short…
The Church is too insular — They tell you everything outside the church is bad and wrong… even though young people know that’s not the case.
Church isn’t important, relevant, or interesting to the younger generation.
Christians are too anti-science.
Christians are sex-negative, wrongly pushing abstinence-only education and avoiding frank discussions about sex.
Christianity is too “exclusive” — you’re either one of them or you’re the enemy.
Christians are hostile to those who doubt any part of the faith."

"Even if atheists never wrote another book or blog post, young people will continue to fall away from Christianity."

Why Are Christians Leaving the Church? Turns Out It’s the Churches’ Fault

An other source says Christians are leaving US churches at a rate at up to one million a year."

[AmbiguousGuy]

Originally Posted by 1robin

That is why it requires faith not proof.

Faith is arbitrary. I can believe in unicorns; you can believe in Jesus. For myself, I'd rather study the evidence and come to the most rational decision. I think if there is a God, He is the creator. If God created me, He wouldn't want me to corrupt the rational thought which He gave me.

However with thousands of witnesses it is as close to proof as it gets in history. Many in fact most of the larger and more meaningfull truths in life are based on faith and have no empirical test. Morals, love, astetic value etc.... have no test but yet are universally believed in.

Bigfoot, Santa Claus, Easter Bunny.

If your point was accurate no body could ever learn another language. Regardless since we can go to the original language of the bible without need for translation your point is meaningless.

Forgive me, but I do not think you have sufficiently studied the language thing. You avoid my central point, which is that language doesn't exist apart from culture. We cannot understand the culture of first-century Judea. Even the most dedicated scholars among us can only form an imperfect understanding of it.

There are coutless books on biblical prophecy by respected scholars. They know when they were written, most are extremely detailed, every single one that was supposed to have been fulfilled by this time has been 100% accurately. They exist in historical documents as well as modern bible's and can not be dismissed.

There's no such thing as foretelling the future with any accuracy. It has never happened. If it were possible, one of your prophets would have written: "In the year 2013, at 8:00pm, an earthquake will destroy Bagdad."

Instead, most prophecies say: "In the future, there'll be much suffering, and babies will cry out in the night."

There's nothing remarkable about such prophecies.

Why bother makeing claims that have no reason to accept them.

I don't know what you're talking about. There are many reasons to accept my claims. I'm just saying it's no skin off my nose if you harden your heart against the truth I bring.

There were only a few Gospels that were not available to most early churches.

Gospels were still being written long after the church began to organize itself. Check Wiki.

However even the Gospels would have no basis without Christ.

Doyle wrote about Sherlock Holmes even though no such recognizable man ever existed.

There is no logical reason to comclude that the historical character that has more textual evidence of any other character in ancient history. Might as well say Ceasur, Plato, Socrates, Xerxes, or King Leonidas never existed. There is less docementation for any of these by far than for Christ. You making decisions based on preference not evidence.

Pot. Kettle.

Without justifying your arbitrary opinion, what is the point?

All of my opinions are justified. All of yours are not. Sorry.

Facts are facts, evidence is evidence, opinion is opinion. It is very simple.

There is no such thing as a fact, of course.

But I could be wrong about that. We could test it if you like. Please define for me, in your own words, what a 'fact' is. I'm asking you to put your definition in quotation marks. A string of words which equals the word 'fact.'

Can you do that?

[1robin]

Originally Posted by ArtieE

Very interesting. Many witnesses even video tapes and so easily debunked. And yet people rely on two thousand year old second hand eyewitness stories to miraculous events and not even a video available. Why is that?

A bright object in the sky when filmed through a camera that is intentionally shaken that is in the exact location venus should be in, and when the line of sight vectors confirm that it is thousands of miles away it is Venus. Especially since most of the hype for that event came from a phsycho conspiracy and ufo cult like group that lied repeatedly and were disproven over and over.

The bibles authors were not second hand witnesses they were first hand witnesses of Chist. In fact that was the criteria for inclusion in the canon. Seeing somebody dieing on a cross is a little more reliable than looking at a bright spot in the sky.

In no category does ufo evidence rival biblical evidence.

Why not? To say such a thing you would have to have knowledge about exactly what happened at the Big Bang. Can you show me the evidence you have that a God must have done whatever He did?

I know that natural law applied at the big bang. Actually I don't but scientists told me so then it must be so. That natural law, 2LOT states that order does not arise without mind, information is not created without intelligence, there must be a uncaused first cause, nothing comes from nothing, unconsciousness doesn't produce conciousness, and only life produces life. Yet you will have faith in something that violates every single one of these laws and countless more. You have more faith than I do.

Then you have disproved the Bible.

What.

There are about 6.5 million land animals on the planet today. Times two for male and female and you have at least 13 million land animals.

You mean species correct?

Not to mention you would really need about 4000 of each animal go get a viable breeding population going. Either there were at the very least 13 million land animals on the Ark plus food and water which nobody could be capable of believing or there were fewer but then you would need macroevolution to make the rest of the species.

You don't need 4,000 if God is involved. I have seen the numbers, the dimensions for the Ark gave a volume of many hundreds and hundreds of rail cars and could have fit a pair or more of every species. I have no firm position and so will say no more. It could have been allegorical or God could have actualy done it (the population regressions are extremely close).

Of course. There is no reason to claim that those who wrote the Bible didn't know their own geography. But have you noticed any evidence at all of any supernatural stuff going on?

The early and universal proliferation across every socio-economical and cultural boundry is evidence of the effects especially in the face of persecution. Of course natural tests can't access supernatural events but they can detect their effects. Well over one thousand detailed fulfilled prophecies are by themselves suffecient proof which is why critics continue to try and prove them wrong without effect.

All extra-biblical sources don't even mention stuff that would have been sensational today. Only in the Bible. Wonder why?

Because we have probably much less than 1% of the texts written at the time and writing was rare anyway. Which makes the bibles survival and unrivalled textual tradition a virtual miracle it's self.

True.Those are not false claims. It's simply ancient Hebrew cosmology. "The universe of the Hebrew Bible was made up of a flat disc-shaped earth floating on water, heaven above, underworld below

You are inventing that based on the word for circle used in the bible. They did not have a word for sphere. However since the claim of circle is not limited to a specific location it produces a sphere if imagined from every ones point of view. The bible also records that the horizon is an arc which further disproves your understanding.

.[6] Humans inhabited earth during life and the underworld after death, and the underworld was morally neutral;[7] only in Hellenistic times (after c.330 BCE) did Jews begin to adopt the Greek idea that it would be a place of punishment for misdeeds, and that the righteous would enjoy an afterlife in heaven

The Hebrews didn't elaborate much at all on the concept of sheol. With Christ came a much more detailed and amplified view of many things. That was part of his purpose. The very last thing the Hebrews tolerated was things borrowed from other religions. They had suffered greatly because of this and at that time resisted it fenatically.

.[8] In this period too the older three-level cosmology was widely replaced by the Greek concept of a spherical earth suspended in space at the centre of a number of concentric heavens.[6]" Wikipedia. At some point you just have to face the facts. Denial doesn't help at all.

Already addressed.

It comes from here: Reuters At least 6.5 million times 2 for male and female gives 13 million. It's simple: Since Christians say that one species can't turn into another species then you have to have at least this number. But you have to have 4000 of each species. "When inbreeding effects are included, estimates of MVP for many species are in the 1,000s. Based on a meta-analysis of reported values in the literature for many species, Traill et al. reported a median MVP of 4,169 individuals.[5]" Minimum viable breeding population

So he can supernaturally get all these animals there but he has to rely on whatever wikipedia says to breed them. This is incosistant. One supernatural event is just as probable as another.

That is simply a lie. Everybody knows that the US where almost four out of five are Christian also has the highest crime rate in the world.

It should be illegal what a critic does with statistics. There is no concievable way a book that says do not murder increases the murder rate. You would have the impossable task of linking crime to Christianity. In fact it is our unprecedented freedom and our commitment to reduce the amount of times a innocent man is convisted that has led to crime rates. This is a silly argument.

The best countries to live in are consistently the most secular.Then you don't know that "37% of women obtaining abortions identify themselves as Protestant, and 28% identify themselves as Catholic (AGI)."? Just google us abortion rates.You just stop saying this stuff. Just google "christian school shooting".

Here you go again. Have you ever had a statistics class? I have had 4 college level classes in cludeing eng statistics and probability.
1. These are US numbers, by your numbers which are wrong but anyway the US is 80% Christians. So 80% of the population which is Christian gets 65% of the abortions and the other 20% of the population which isn't gets 35% of the abortions. That works out to about twice the effective rate for non Christians vs Christians. So much for your numbers.

Fastest growing religion? I have no idea where you get this stuff. Here's the truth:

Fastest Growing Religion; Christianity
The five fastest growing religions in terms of absolute numbers (new adherents per year, in millions): 1.Christianity25,210,1952.Islam22,588,6763.Hinduis m12,533,7344.Chinese folk-religions3,715,5485.Buddhism3,687,527

"Why Are Christians Leaving the Church? Turns Out It’s the Churches’ Fault

"So why are Christians — real, churchgoing Christians — leaving the faith later in life?"

You are a very inaccurate statician. Church emebership in the U.S. is growing. It is falling in Europe because the governements have absorbed the church into it's relm of disfunction as well as Europes current trend towards secularism as they go broke.

"No single reason dominated the break-up between church and young adults. Instead, a variety of reasons emerged. Overall, the research uncovered six significant themes why nearly three out of every five young Christians (59%) disconnect either permanently or for an extended period of time from church life after age 15.

You can see Kinnaman’s six reasons here.

In short…
The Church is too insular — They tell you everything outside the church is bad and wrong… even though young people know that’s not the case.
Church isn’t important, relevant, or interesting to the younger generation.
Christians are too anti-science.
Christians are sex-negative, wrongly pushing abstinence-only education and avoiding frank discussions about sex.
Christianity is too “exclusive” — you’re either one of them or you’re the enemy.
Christians are hostile to those who doubt any part of the faith."

When did the philosophy of Church attendance become the topic. Is that all you got left.

"Even if atheists never wrote another book or blog post, young people will continue to fall away from Christianity."

Why Are Christians Leaving the Church? Turns Out It’s the Churches’ Fault

An other source says Christians are leaving US churches at a rate at up to one million a year."[/quote] Is that why Christianity gains 25 million converts each year? Pronounceing the death of Christianity besides being stupid and innacurate is also a recipe for disaster for the one who does so. Just ask Voltaire.

[ArtieE]

Originally Posted by 1robin

I know that natural law applied at the big bang. Actually I don't but scientists told me so then it must be so. That natural law, 2LOT states that order does not arise without mind, information is not created without intelligence, there must be a uncaused first cause, nothing comes from nothing, unconsciousness doesn't produce conciousness, and only life produces life. Yet you will have faith in something that violates every single one of these laws and countless more. You have more faith than I do.

This post is too long to go into specifics so I can't explain one by one, suffice to say that they all show that you don't seem to have any idea what you are talking about here. "2LOT states that order does not arise without mind," is pure nonsense. "the second law of thermodynamics is an expression of the tendency that over time, differences in temperature, pressure, and chemical potential equilibrate in an isolated physical system so as to result in the natural entropic dissolution of the system itself." No mind involved here. And I don't have time to go into all that's wrong with the others.

The early and universal proliferation across every socio-economical and cultural boundry is evidence of the effects especially in the face of persecution. Of course natural tests can't access supernatural events but they can detect their effects. Well over one thousand detailed fulfilled prophecies are by themselves suffecient proof which is why critics continue to try and prove them wrong without effect.

They have no effect on you but everybody else who are not blind with belief can all see them. Just google "failed biblical prophecies".

Because we have probably much less than 1% of the texts written at the time and writing was rare anyway. Which makes the bibles survival and unrivalled textual tradition a virtual miracle it's self.

The Egyptian Book of the Dead was used from 1550 BC, same with the Indian Vedas long before the books in the Bible were even assembled.

You are inventing that based on the word for circle used in the bible. They did not have a word for sphere.

Do you ever check that you write the truth when you write something? The Hebrew word (חוּג chûg) denotes "a circle, sphere, or arch" and nowhere in a cosmological context is it used as meaning a globe.

However since the claim of circle is not limited to a specific location it produces a sphere if imagined from every ones point of view. The bible also records that the horizon is an arc which further disproves your understanding.

Where?

The Hebrews didn't elaborate much at all on the concept of sheol. With Christ came a much more detailed and amplified view of many things.
That was part of his purpose. The very last thing the Hebrews tolerated was things borrowed from other religions. They had suffered greatly because of this and at that time resisted it fenatically.

So he can supernaturally get all these animals there but he has to rely on whatever wikipedia says to breed them. This is incosistant. One supernatural event is just as probable as another.

I know. Whenever anything goes against logic, reason and common sense Goddidit. But that is not an explanation. It's a cop out.

It should be illegal what a critic does with statistics. There is no concievable way a book that says do not murder increases the murder rate. You would have the impossable task of linking crime to Christianity.

Really? "The FBI gave the standard profile of a serial killer, He is a person with few friends. He became much more religious just before he started murdering people ...
Nearly all serial killers are very devout men who were raised by members of Pentecostal sects, fundamentalist Catholics or were 'hard-shell' Baptists and Methodists."

"On TV a woman said she had interviewed more serial killers, just after they were caught, than any other person. She said "when you ask a serial killer questions like "Why did you murder this moral, loving married person with children?" "Didn’t you think of how terrible this would be to her husband, her children, her parents?" Almost all serial killers start quoting one verse after another from the Christian Bible. This shows most serial killers had strong religious upbringing, have been studying the bible for years and were still very Christian religious when they were murdering."

How is that for linking crime with Christianity?

Serial Killers

"Atheism is on the rise in the United States and elsewhere while religiosity is declining, according to a new worldwide poll. “The Global Index of Religiosity and Atheism,” conducted by WIN-Gallup International headquartered in Switzerland, found that the number of Americans who say they are “religious” dropped from 73 percent in 2005 – when the poll was last conducted – to 60 percent. Religion dropping

I have started working after the holidays so I have just edited out some of the post for lack of time.

[camanintx]

Originally Posted by 1robin

Fastest Growing Religion; Christianity
The five fastest growing religions in terms of absolute numbers (new adherents per year, in millions): 1.Christianity25,210,1952.Islam22,588,6763.Hinduis m12,533,7344.Chinese folk-religions3,715,5485.Buddhism3,687,527

With about 2 billion Christians world wide, they should be having about 40,000,000 babies a year at current birth rates. If their only gaining 25,000,000 new adherents a year, then they're not even keeping all of the ones their making.

[1robin]

Originally Posted by AmbiguousGuy

Faith is arbitrary. I can believe in unicorns; you can believe in Jesus. For myself, I'd rather study the evidence and come to the most rational decision. I think if there is a God, He is the creator. If God created me, He wouldn't want me to corrupt the rational thought which He gave me.

Christian faith is anything but arbitrary. It is based on the most cherished and trusted book in human history which contains historical corroberations, prophecy, unknown scientific knowledge, philisophic consistency, and explanitory power. Can you provide this for unicorns. Making comparisons between two unequal things is a popular tactic for those without legitamite claims. You would have to first show you think rationally for that last sentence to have meaning.

Bigfoot, Santa Claus, Easter Bunny.

None of which have a single shred of evidence or a single eyewitness as compared with 750,000 words in the most respected book in history written by dopzens of witnesses in addition to the 2 billion alive today. There is no comparison.

Forgive me, but I do not think you have sufficiently studied the language thing. You avoid my central point, which is that language doesn't exist apart from culture. We cannot understand the culture of first-century Judea. Even the most dedicated scholars among us can only form an imperfect understanding of it.

Language is simply a way of describing or relateing to concepts. The concepts objectively exist and are not dependant on language. There is no point to address here. Virtually all languages are known quantities. They are exhaustively understood. The Greek the NT is written in is more understood than most.

There's no such thing as foretelling the future with any accuracy. It has never happened. If it were possible, one of your prophets would have written: "In the year 2013, at 8:00pm, an earthquake will destroy Bagdad."

Why don't you say the earth is square. The destruction of Babylon, Persia, Tyre, Israel several times, plus 350 details about Christ alone were predected in detail hundreds and thousands of years before they occured. To say other wise is just plain nuts.

Instead, most prophecies say: "In the future, there'll be much suffering, and babies will cry out in the night."

There is not a single biblical prophecy that uses these words.

There's nothing remarkable about such prophecies.

You obviously know jack about biblical prophecy. Here is just one part of a single one:
Tyre's fortresses would fail

Bible prophecy: Amos 1:9-10
Prophecy written: About 750 BC
Prophecy fulfilled: 333-332 BC

In Amos 1:9-10, the prophet said that God would cause Tyre's protective fortresses to fail, as punishment for the way that Tyre treated Israel. That prophecy was fulfilled in 586-573 BC when Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar attacked the mainland of Tyre, and in 333-332 BC when Alexander the Great conquered the island of Tyre. Alexander's army built a land bridge from the mainland to the island so that they could use a battering ram to break through the island's fortress. - Copyright © George Konig, Ray Konig and 100Prophecies.org

Amos 1:9-10:

This is what the Lord says: "For three sins of Tyre, even for four, I will not turn back [my wrath]. Because she sold whole communities of captives to Edom, disregarding a treaty of brotherhood, I will send fire upon the walls of Tyre that will consume her fortresses."


Tyre would be attacked by many nations

Bible prophecy: Ezekiel 26:3
Prophecy written: Between 587-586 BC
Prophecy fulfilled: 573 BC, 332 BC, etc.

In Ezekiel 26:3, the prophet said that Tyre, the Phoenician Empire's most powerful city, would be attacked by many nations, because of its treatment of Israel. At about the time that Ezekiel delivered this prophecy, Babylon had begun a 13-year attack on Tyre's mainland. Later, in about 332 BC, Alexander the Great conquered the island of Tyre and brought an end to the Phoenician Empire. - Copyright © George Konig, Ray Konig and 100Prophecies.org

Ezekiel 26:3:

therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, O Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you, like the sea casting up its waves.
Bible prophecies fulfilled by Phoenicia's city of Tyre
Who would attack?
When it would be attacked?
Who would be attacked?
What the damage would be?
What the condition of things would be after it's destruction.
ETC......
Were predicted. At that site there are 99 more of thousands and the rest of this one alone which was too big to post. If you wish to attack this one which is your only response just go the the Tyre thread where any attack you dredge up has already been refuted.

I don't know what you're talking about. There are many reasons to accept my claims. I'm just saying it's no skin off my nose if you harden your heart against the truth I bring.

You have not made any claims except that your God is mute and hates his followers, and you have not given a single reason to believe you know anything about any divine entity.

Gospels were still being written long after the church began to organize itself. Check Wiki.

I know more about the Gospels that can be found at that site. The bible's NT criteria is eye witnesses only. Not any later heretical and gnostic garbage made to gain legitamavy by associateing with Christianity. You need much greater knowledge if you find these proto gospels reliable.

Doyle wrote about Sherlock Holmes even though no such recognizable man ever existed.

A fictional book is not comparable with the bible. The fact you think so is disturbing. Fiction equals "not true" which equals a lie. A lie doesn't have to be based on anything real. However early Christians risked their lifes on the basis of what they would have known to be a lie or not. Countless Christians have been killed because they believed that they had an experience with a risen Christ. I don't think readers of Doyle were faithful unto death claiming Sherlock actually existed. What is your background with this subject you are woefully un prepared.

Pot. Kettle.

Is this all you got?

All of my opinions are justified. All of yours are not. Sorry.

Being that 1/3 of the population agrees with me and it is very doubtful that any one else agrees with you this is just more meaningless white noise.

There is no such thing as a fact, of course.

Then this statement is false. Do you know anything about philosophy?

But I could be wrong about that. We could test it if you like. Please define for me, in your own words, what a 'fact' is. I'm asking you to put your definition in quotation marks. A string of words which equals the word 'fact.'

Well Descarte, a much greater philosopher than you or I said "we think" was one. I do not think you are qualified to judge the issue though.

Can you do that?

THe question is would you recognize it if I did? I have no reason to place confidence in your understanding of these issues. You are making mistakes that are indicative of very little knowledge in these areas.

[1robin]

Originally Posted by camanintx

With about 2 billion Christians world wide, they should be having about 40,000,000 babies a year at current birth rates. If their only gaining 25,000,000 new adherents a year, then they're not even keeping all of the ones their making.

That is hardly news or meaningfull. Are you suggesting they should have a conversion rate of 100%? Islam forces somewhere near a 100% rate are you suggesting that they are acting wisely? It is impossible to arrive at your projections unless many other demographics such as age dispersion are considered. Did you do this or shoot blind?

[ArtieE]

Originally Posted by 1robin

You obviously know jack about biblical prophecy. Here is just one part of a single one:
Tyre's fortresses would fail

Bible prophecy: Amos 1:9-10
Prophecy written: About 750 BC
Prophecy fulfilled: 333-332 BC

In Amos 1:9-10, the prophet said that God would cause Tyre's protective fortresses to fail, as punishment for the way that Tyre treated Israel. That prophecy was fulfilled in 586-573 BC when Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar attacked the mainland of Tyre, and in 333-332 BC when Alexander the Great conquered the island of Tyre. Alexander's army built a land bridge from the mainland to the island so that they could use a battering ram to break through the island's fortress. - Copyright © George Konig, Ray Konig and 100Prophecies.org

Amos 1:9-10:

This is what the Lord says: "For three sins of Tyre, even for four, I will not turn back [my wrath]. Because she sold whole communities of captives to Edom, disregarding a treaty of brotherhood, I will send fire upon the walls of Tyre that will consume her fortresses."

1. It wasn't God who destroyed Tyre it was Nebuchadnezzar and Alexander the Great. Do you have any evidence that a deity was involved?
2. If God destroyed Tyre this is of course not a prophecy at all. God is saying what He's going to do. Would it be a prophecy if I said I would go to the cinema tomorrow and actually went to the cinema tomorrow? Of course not.

Tyre would be attacked by many nations

Bible prophecy: Ezekiel 26:3
Prophecy written: Between 587-586 BC
Prophecy fulfilled: 573 BC, 332 BC, etc.

In Ezekiel 26:3, the prophet said that Tyre, the Phoenician Empire's most powerful city, would be attacked by many nations, because of its treatment of Israel. At about the time that Ezekiel delivered this prophecy, Babylon had begun a 13-year attack on Tyre's mainland. Later, in about 332 BC, Alexander the Great conquered the island of Tyre and brought an end to the Phoenician Empire. - Copyright © George Konig, Ray Konig and 100Prophecies.org

A prophecy saying that Tyre would be attacked produced at the same time that Babylon were attacking? Oh how amazing... if He had said Alexander the Great would attack now that would be something.

Ezekiel 26:3:

therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am against you, O Tyre, and I will bring many nations against you, like the sea casting up its waves.
Bible prophecies fulfilled by Phoenicia's city of Tyre
Who would attack?
When it would be attacked?
Who would be attacked?
What the damage would be?
What the condition of things would be after it's destruction.
ETC......
Were predicted. At that site there are 99 more of thousands and the rest of this one alone which was too big to post. If you wish to attack this one which is your only response just go the the Tyre thread where any attack you dredge up has already been refuted.

How can this possibly be a prophecy? If I say I am going to go to the cinema tomorrow and actually go to the cinema tomorrow am I a prophet then?

[1robin]

Originally Posted by ArtieE

1. It wasn't God who destroyed Tyre it was Nebuchadnezzar and Alexander the Great. Do you have any evidence that a deity was involved?
2. If God destroyed Tyre this is of course not a prophecy at all. God is saying what He's going to do. Would it be a prophecy if I said I would go to the cinema tomorrow and actually went to the cinema tomorrow? Of course not.

So God is a fact but you are equivocating concerning the meaning of the word prophecy. Are you familiar with the subject at all? Prophecy is proof of the divine which you seem to conceed so what is the issue here? Regardless Ezekiel and Isaiah among others are the ones who wrote it down. Yes they said Nebuchadnezzer would attack but not conquor and they said that another would come and finish the job. Their words ranged from hundreds of years before to just a few before the events. I wish you would please go to the Tyre thread and get familiar with this if you want to debate details. You seem to be unfamiliar with this prophecy and maybe even the concept all together.

A prophecy saying that Tyre would be attacked produced at the same time that Babylon were attacking? Oh how amazing... if He had said Alexander the Great would attack now that would be something.

This is a typical tactic of critics. If I supply a list of a hundred things they will counter the two weakest even if the claims are correct and then forget the rest and yell victory. There are many verses that predict these events and all of them are prior to the events some by hundreds of years. If you are satasfied with such an empty "victory" then have at it. Even the events that happened afterward in Egypt concerning Nebuchadnezzar were foretold includeing that Egypt would NEVR regain her stature she had previous to this. Egypt never has. The day that Israel was to become a nation again was given to the day. It also said she would never be over run and removed from that land until armageddon. Israel has since fought 6 wars and hundreds of engagements and should have lost most of them. The surrounding countries that have repeatedly attacked Israel out number Israel by 80 -1 and yet have been dramatically defeated in some of the most lopsided battles in history even before we gave them any help at all.

How can this possibly be a prophecy? If I say I am going to go to the cinema tomorrow and actually go to the cinema tomorrow am I a prophet then?

This is the first time this strange view has raised it's head out of the muck. Prophecy is used to prove the divine. You say, oh no.... God perdicting what he will do is no claim to divinity. What can be said to such reasoning. Every day brings fresh astonishment at what is used to dismiss the bible. If someone said God told him that you are going to the cinema and gave the date and what you would see and whether you would like it then when it happens and it is known to be written a thousand years ago, well then it is impossible to deny the supernatural. There are over 1,500 of these in the bible and are elaborated on extensively in multivolume works. This is the most ineffective counter to prophecy I have ever seen.

[ArtieE]

"Ezekiel 26:7-14
For thus says the Lord: "Behold I will bring upon Tyre from the north Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon, king of kings, with horses and chariots, and with horsemen and a hosts of many soldiers. He will slay with the sword your daughters on the mainland; he will set up a seige wall against you. He will direct the shock of his battering rams against your walls, and with his axes he will break down your towers...With the hoofs os his horses he will trample all your streets; he will slay your people with the sword and your mighty pillar will fall to the ground...they will break down your walls and destroy your pleasant houses... I will make you a bare rock...you shall never be rebuilt, for I have spoken," says the Lord God."

Tyre is now the fourth largest city in Lebanon with a population of 60 000. So we go from "I will make you a bare rock...you shall never be rebuilt, for I have spoken," says the Lord God." to a city of 60 000. What an amazingly correct prophecy, right?

Isaiah 23:15-17
"New International Version (©1984)
"At that time Tyre will be forgotten for seventy years, the span of a king's life. But at the end of these seventy years, it will happen to Tyre as in the song of the prostitute:"
"Take up a harp, walk through the city, O prostitute forgotten; play the harp well, sing many a song, so that you will be remembered."
"At the end of seventy years, the LORD will deal with Tyre. She will return to her hire as a prostitute and will ply her trade with all the kingdoms on the face of the earth."

Can you show any evidence that Tyre was forgotten for 70 years?


Here's a claimed prophecy.

"Mark 1:2 "It is written in Isaiah the prophet: 'I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way'"

Can you quote us where in Isaiah this prophecy is written?