towards understanding the concept of just of the non Abrahamicreligions

[islam abduallah]

Originally Posted by atanu

Thanks. But where is it said: 'they are trying to deceive Him'?

I will remind you that as per you punishments are meted out by Allah, because 'they are trying to deceive Him'. Where is it said 'they are trying to deceive Him' ?

1- But what they concealed before has [now] appeared to them. And even if they were returned, they would return to that which they were forbidden; and indeed, they are liars 6:28


2-And say, "My Lord, I seek refuge in You from the incitements of the devils, And I seek refuge in You, my Lord , lest they be present with me, [For such is the state of the disbelievers], until, when death comes to one of them, he says, "My Lord, send me back, That I might do righteousness in that which I left behind." No! It is only a word he is saying; and behind them is a barrier until the Day they are resurrected. 23:97-100

OK, i think i have to explain it more

in that verses Allah said that when the disbelievers died and saw the hell they will ask Allah to return back to the life in order to do well in that life, but Allah knows well that they are liars so that he said " No! It is only a word he is saying" and said "And even if they were returned, they would return to that which they were forbidden; and indeed, they are liars" they said that only by their tongues and if he returns them back they will do what was forbidden so when they said that they will do well they are trying to deceive Allah to avoid the punishment and to return back to the life

do you get it?

[atanu]

Originally Posted by islam abduallah

let me show you how things work in Islam, ----

----- he knows well that they are in a big lie, they are trying to deceive him and if he returns them to the life again as they will do as they did before and they will say if we die again we will ask the god for another life and he's the most merciful and he will do as he did before but Allah isn't naive ------
think deeply about those verses

Originally Posted by islam abduallah

1- But what they concealed before has [now] appeared to them. And even if they were returned, they would return to that which they were forbidden; and indeed, they are liars 6:28

2-And say, "My Lord, I seek refuge in You from the incitements of the devils, And I seek refuge in You, my Lord , lest they be present with me, [For such is the state of the disbelievers], until, when death comes to one of them, he says, "My Lord, send me back, That I might do righteousness in that which I left behind." No! It is only a word he is saying; and behind them is a barrier until the Day they are resurrected. 23:97-100

OK, i think i have to explain it more

in that verses Allah said that when the disbelievers died and saw the hell they will ask Allah to return back to the life in order to do well in that life, but Allah knows well that they are liars so that he said " No! It is only a word he is saying" and said "And even if they were returned, they would return to that which they were forbidden; and indeed, they are liars" they said that only by their tongues and if he returns them back they will do what was forbidden so when they said that they will do well they are trying to deceive Allah to avoid the punishment and to return back to the life

do you get it?

Thank you for the pain you take. I think I understand it now better that the context is denying the sinner another life.

But why did such a sinner get a life in the first place? Now that he has sinned, Allah knows that he will sin again, if given a life. Did He not know it before giving him the first life?

And I still cannot see that a sinner is decieving Allah. There must be a mis-understanding. I am stressing this point for a reason and not for mere disputation.

[Madhuri]

Originally Posted by islam abduallah

like if i killed somebody, it's too important to be memorized in order to avoid it in further lives

How do you learn from such an experience? Through being forced to have something similar or the same happen to you (karma= every action has an equal and opposite reaction), which leads to the development of empathy or even simply expansion of consciousness (same thing, really). As an example, sometimes a person will not realise how they hurt another until they experience it for themselves.

The learning, or expansion of consciousness, is something that occurs without one having to hold a memory that plagues him/her of guilt and causes psychological distress and chronic problems for eternity.

[Riverwolf]

Originally Posted by islam abduallah

i mean when you said once we go there we are fine, i said or maybe bad or not fine if we did bad deeds in our life. is that right?

I don't know; I was talking about your religion.

i couldn't fully understand you

I believe in God, which is illogical. Logic would have me be an atheist. But I want to believe, and it is frequently said that God cannot be found with logic or the intellect; it can actually be a detriment. So, in this case, I will not use logic.

ok, i got your point, we are his successive authority on the earth, and he's testing us if we fix the earth and do well to his creatures and worship him in the right way we will be rewarded otherwise, we deserve to be punished

But for eternity? I refuse to bow down to such a malevolent God.

if the god fix everything to us and force us to do his rules, that means that we are not in a test it would be like a big theater, but he gave us the free will and examines us what we will do with it

I agree that it's our responsibility to do these things, but I don't believe for a moment that the alternative is eternal hell. No God with love would even allow such a place to exist.

[islam abduallah]

Originally Posted by atanu

Thank you for the pain you take. I think I understand it now better that the context is denying the sinner another life.

But why did such a sinner get a life in the first place? Now that he has sinned, Allah knows that he will sin again, if given a life. Did He not know it before giving him the first life?

And I still cannot see that a sinner is decieving Allah. There must be a mis-understanding. I am stressing this point for a reason and not for mere disputation.

the verses not talking about sinners, they are talking about the disbelievers (who denies the god)
the god knows that he will be disbeliever, but we are in a test as i told before and Allah gave us the free will to do well or bad but his knowledge preceding our actions but if he Judged us based on his knowledge it would be un fair so that he gave all of us a life, to be fair for who entering the paradise and fair to who will be in the hell

[atanu]

Originally Posted by islam abduallah

the verses not talking about sinners, they are talking about the disbelievers (who denies the god)
the god knows that he will be disbeliever, but we are in a test as i told before and Allah gave us the free will to do well or bad but his knowledge preceding our actions but if he Judged us based on his knowledge it would be un fair so that he gave all of us a life, to be fair for who entering the paradise and fair to who will be in the hell

Dear Islam

Contemplate on your understanding. Allah is all knowing. He would know even in the first instance who would believe and who would not. Why should he then test? Further, now he is judging based on his knowledge that one would again be a liar.

Does this not appear to be a set-up game? A human kind of understanding and that too a childish one at best?

Again, there is no evidence from Koran that Allah says "People will deceive Him".

You seem eager to put down religious philosophy of other schools too readily without first examining your assumptions. This is my opinion. I may be wrong.

[A-ManESL]

To say that a religion is non-Abrahamic/Abrahamic is itself a Western concept which developed comparatively late. In reality none of these religions projected themselves as such and this categorization itself is faulty. Islam categorically projects itself as universal in many places in the Quran.

[islam abduallah]

Originally Posted by atanu

Dear Islam

Contemplate on your understanding. Allah is all knowing. He would know even in the first instance who would believe and who would not. Why should he then test? Further, now he is judging based on his knowledge that one would again be a liar.

Does this not appear to be a set-up game? A human kind of understanding and that too a childish one at best?

Again, there is no evidence from Koran that Allah says "People will deceive Him".

You seem eager to put down religious philosophy of other schools too readily without first examining your assumptions. This is my opinion. I may be wrong.

listen to me dear, if the god reward or punish people without first test them, the people will easily say what wrong i did in order to punish me and to reward others? and honestly they will be right in their argument they didn't do anything wrong yet to be punished,
also the god said that he will not punish anybody till he sent to them a mesenger "And never would We punish until We sent a messenger" and the people who didn't hear about any messenger and they disbelieve in Allah they will not be punished in the other life as they didn't be notified so the god created us althouh he knows what will we do to prevent any argument

[islam abduallah]

Originally Posted by Madhuri

How do you learn from such an experience? Through being forced to have something similar or the same happen to you (karma= every action has an equal and opposite reaction), which leads to the development of empathy or even simply expansion of consciousness (same thing, really). As an example, sometimes a person will not realise how they hurt another until they experience it for themselves.

The learning, or expansion of consciousness, is something that occurs without one having to hold a memory that plagues him/her of guilt and causes psychological distress and chronic problems for eternity.

how i could learn from that? Hmm, if i killed some one may i couldn't notice at first how it's bad to make his wife a widow how his children become orphans without any mistake they did, many things i'll not notice at first time, but when i see these consequences may i hope not to kill him and that i could return the life to his soul so in my seond life i have to remember that in order to be lesson learnt and i'll not do it again and so improve my self

[islam abduallah]

Originally Posted by Riverwolf

I believe in God, which is illogical. Logic would have me be an atheist. But I want to believe, and it is frequently said that God cannot be found with logic or the intellect; it can actually be a detriment. So, in this case, I will not use logic.

how to believe in god is illogical?

Originally Posted by Riverwolf

But for eternity? I refuse to bow down to such a malevolent God.

Allah said "Never would the Messiah disdain to be a servant of Allah , nor would the angels near [to Him]. And whoever disdains His worship and is arrogant - He will gather them to Himself all together"
he's not malevolent, he offered you 2 options and told you the consequences of both, and it's your decision, don't blame him for your decision