Why be this way?

[CaptainBritain]

Originally Posted by Otherright

Do you know how many times I've had to explain that I don't worship a fat, bald-headed guy? That worship isn't a part of Buddhism. I have literally gotten to the point that I simply say, "Well, at least he isn't a bearded Italian carpenter."

Dont want to sideline the thread but where does the idea of a fat Buddha come from?, confess that ive only read bits of Buddhist texts, but it just seem more natural to me that a man who freed himself from desire would more resemble the thinner versions of his statues?, is this an ignorant conclusion on my part?

[Neophyte]

Originally Posted by no-body

I agree simply going to the other extreme is basically the same thing, but you must understand if you live in America especially in a predominately Christian local how frustrating it is for your family, friends and a lot of times even employer to shove down "Jesus is Lord" down your throat 24/7 like it's no big thing. If someone where to look at it objectively, it would be absolutely insane to express the things these people do yet for some reason we tolerate it. This can be very embittering, especially to the young.

I am American, so I certainly understand...heck, my dad is a Baptist preacher. Believe me, I understand...I understand the annoyance/anger from having everyone else believes shuved down ones throat. My thought is just like anything else...slow introduction. They will fight it and hate it at first, then tolerate it with occassional rude comment, then OK with it as long as rituals and such are not around them, to being just another religion. Keep in mind that these don't happen in 5-10 years...it can take 20+ years. It may not be right but niehter was slavery. At least we have come a long way since then...same with this...give it time, a lot of time.

[Neophyte]

Originally Posted by AmbiguousGuy

Hey, Neophyte. Why would it be disrespectful to question the historicity of Jesus? I don't understand that.

It seems to me like Christian scholars are first in line for such debates.

It seems to me that those on this site that question things like this are trying to disprove the Christian religion, yet they would get mad if Christians tried to disprove theirs. We should all just respect each others religions and not force our beliefs on each other. I tend to believe there is only 1 God. I do not believe in multiple gods. (I do not know your beliefs on this just for examples sake) If you believe in several gods should I try to prove you wrong? There is no reason for this. We can give opinions, that is fine. I am refering to those trying to destroy anothers belief. That is wrong...it is their belief!

[Neophyte]

Originally Posted by Otherright

Do you know how many times I've had to explain that I don't worship a fat, bald-headed guy? That worship isn't a part of Buddhism. I have literally gotten to the point that I simply say, "Well, at least he isn't a bearded Italian carpenter."

As a Christian for many year, I understand the reason Christians think Buddists worship Buddah. He is on statues in which Christians associate as an idol. Grant it, this is due to ignorance. I am not Buddist but I do understand some of what it is all about. I have read into it some. It is not for me but it is a nice and respectable religion. It will take time for Christians to understand it. They need to come out of their state of ignorance and this can only happen as they are exposed to it over time. If you offend them though it will make this process take longer. Especially with the bearded-Italian comment...He was a Jew by the way.

[Neophyte]

Originally Posted by AmbiguousGuy

Hey, Neophyte. Another question occurs to me which might help us see into your issue here.

In the 1500s, the Catholic Church held as an article of faith that the earth was the center of the universe and that the sun orbited it (geocentrism). But Galileo came along. He studied the matter and concluded that actually the earth most probably orbited the sun (heliocentricism).

So do you think that Galileo was disrespectful to argue for heliocentrism, even though the Church saw it as an attack against its beliefs?

I understand what you are saying but I think you are missing my point. There is nothing wrong with discussing it...just don't try to be insultinve or try to destroy someone elses beiefs. Today, we know that the earth orbits around the sun. If someone toay chose to believe that the sun orbited the earth then in my opinion that would be stupid. At the same time, why should I try to insult them over it...religion is based on faith, we can chat about it but we need to watch how we say it and not try to force our beliefs on them. That is the point I am trying to make.

[AmbiguousGuy]

Originally Posted by Neophyte

It seems to me that those on this site that question things like this are trying to disprove the Christian religion, yet they would get mad if Christians tried to disprove theirs.

I'm not familiar with the debaters you're discussing, but I don't read many threads. I agree that such people should be ashamed of themselves if they want to preach but not to be preached at.

As for 'disproving the Christian religion' I don't think that's possible. Disproving the reality of Jesus certainly wouldn't disprove Christianity -- no more than disproving Creationism did. It might do a little more damage to the membership roles than Evolution did, but not much. Mostly it would just change the way Christians think about Jesus.

Of course, Christians don't see it that way. They see it as an attack on their religion, rather than an attack on one faulty aspect of their religion. Pre-Darwinian Christians thought he was trying to destroy Christianity... but he wasn't. Same with Galileo.

We should all just respect each others religions and not force our beliefs on each other.

I agree with the respect part. Forcing our beliefs? I think we should aggressively argue for our own truth while aggressively listening to arguments against us.

I tend to believe there is only 1 God. I do not believe in multiple gods. (I do not know your beliefs on this just for examples sake) If you believe in several gods should I try to prove you wrong?

Absolutely you should. It is your duty and responsibility to try and prove me wrong. It's why I come here -- to be proven wrong so that I can emerge on the other side of the argument with a stronger belief system.

Imagine my position. I am lost in false belief. I think there are multiple gods. Maybe I'll go to hell for such a belief. I must find my way to the One-God view. Will you leave me to damnation by refusing to prove my error? I certainly hope not. I hope you'll attack my false belief with everything you've got.

I'm standing before you in a debate forum -- not in a church.

There is no reason for this. We can give opinions, that is fine. I am refering to those trying to destroy anothers belief. That is wrong...it is their belief!

While I find your attitude to be positive and honest, I can't agree that any belief found here in this place should be held as sacred. I want my beliefs attacked. If they're faulty, I want them destroyed.

[Neophyte]

Originally Posted by AmbiguousGuy

I'm not familiar with the debaters you're discussing, but I don't read many threads. I agree that such people should be ashamed of themselves if they want to preach but not to be preached at.

Believe me...there are some here who are quite rude to Christians...not all, just some.

As for 'disproving the Christian religion' I don't think that's possible. Disproving the reality of Jesus certainly wouldn't disprove Christianity -- no more than disproving Creationism did. It might do a little more damage to the membership roles than Evolution did, but not much. Mostly it would just change the way Christians think about Jesus.

Why though? Why try to change thier mind about Jesus. If it makes them happy and/or a better person than it is a good thing for them. Why destroy that?

Of course, Christians don't see it that way. They see it as an attack on their religion, rather than an attack on one faulty aspect of their religion. Pre-Darwinian Christians thought he was trying to destroy Christianity... but he wasn't. Same with Galileo.

Darwin might not have been but the good news is that they have a right to not believe in evolution. Heck, I am not a Christian anymore and I don't believe in evolution.

I agree with the respect part. Forcing our beliefs? I think we should aggressively argue for our own truth while aggressively listening to arguments against us.

I asked myself why but then your next paragraphs explained why you felt this way.

Absolutely you should. It is your duty and responsibility to try and prove me wrong. It's why I come here -- to be proven wrong so that I can emerge on the other side of the argument with a stronger belief system.

Why? If that is what you want then that is fine but not everyone wants people to try to destroy their belief system.

Imagine my position. I am lost in false belief. I think there are multiple gods. Maybe I'll go to hell for such a belief. I must find my way to the One-God view. Will you leave me to damnation by refusing to prove my error? I certainly hope not. I hope you'll attack my false belief with everything you've got.

Are you a Christian? I don't believe anyone is going to Hell. I could be wrong but only death will show me what is after it. If I thought you would go to Hell I would push my beliefs more to save your soul but most of here do not believe this, hence there is no reason to force our beliefs on each other. For those who do, it is for prideful reasons I assume.

I'm standing before you in a debate forum -- not in a church.

OK...if that is what you want then go for it. It is just not for me. I don't mind being quesitoned or disagreed with but I like it done respecftfully.

While I find your attitude to be positive and honest, I can't agree that any belief found here in this place should be held as sacred. I want my beliefs attacked. If they're faulty, I want them destroyed.

Your desires are not for everyone, however, if you like that PM me. I have a Chrsitian forum you will truly love!

[AmbiguousGuy]

Originally Posted by Neophyte

If someone toay chose to believe that the sun orbited the earth then in my opinion that would be stupid. At the same time, why should I try to insult them over it...

I see absolutely no reason to insult them over it and am often dismayed by that sort of behavior. We should be as courteous as possible in debate.

religion is based on faith, we can chat about it but we need to watch how we say it and not try to force our beliefs on them. That is the point I am trying to make.

And it's a fine point. My only disagreement would be that faith-objects have no place in a debate. If I hold a sacred belief -- based on no evidence and held with absolute certainty -- I probably should keep it to myself when engaged in debate.

[Quagmire]

Originally Posted by Neophyte

What is the point? I see Jesus questioned on here a lot, things like whether he was real. Why? I understand debating doctorine, ways of thinking, etc. but sometimes it seems like it is more of an attempt to mock the Christians. I think it stems from the way Christians on the outside tend to treat us. Think about it though, how are we any better if we do that? We aren't! Let's treat them with the same repsect we want them to treat us with. Again, nothing wrong with debating, but let's be respectful.

A lot of people in here are in the process of trying to de-program themselves from a lot of the residual effects of their religious upbringing.

Quickest way for an ex-Christian to do that is by convincing him/herself that the central figure of Christianity never existed. If you can do that, the whole thing falls apart.

Problem is you can't do it except on a superficial level. Anyone who devotes any serious time and effort into studying what little evidence there is, or what scholars have to say about it, is going to walk away with "Yeah, looks like he probably did" hanging over their heads.

The real problem with that is that somewhere in the back of the mind of someone in this position this is going to be going on:

"If Jesus existed, then maybe what Christians are saying is true. If what Christians are saying is true, then I'm going to hell" which, of course, is the exact thing they were trying to get rid of in the first place.

If people would take the time to objectively study Christianity: it's roots, how it evolved, the ways in which it's been influenced by tradition/politics/interpretation, they'd come to understand that the formula in the paragraph above doesn't necessarily follow.

It's sort of like if we were all raised in a village on the edge of a forest, being constantly told by some of the elders, "Don't go into the forest! There are dragons there!". Some of us would grow up worshiping the dragon, others would reject the dragon idea.

Even so, very few of us would ever venture into the forest.

[AmbiguousGuy]

Originally Posted by Neophyte

Believe me...there are some here who are quite rude to Christians...not all, just some.

Yes, and some Christians here are brutally rude to non-Christians. Personally, I don't even care about or know the religion of most of my dialogue partners.

Why though? Why try to change thier mind about Jesus. If it makes them happy and/or a better person than it is a good thing for them. Why destroy that?

Why was it important to Galileo to prove heliocentricism? I don't know. I guess he felt that truth is important.

It's 500 years ago, and Galileo is here in this forum. Do you ask him why he wants to change Christians' minds about geocentrism?

Geocentricism makes them happy. Why destroy their happy belief?

Heck, I am not a Christian anymore and I don't believe in evolution.

Have you ever studied it? Are you aware that in the US, conservative Christians are virtually the only people who disbelieve evolution? There's a chance that your disbelief could be residue from your time as a Christian. You might want to look into it.

If that is what you want then that is fine but not everyone wants people to try to destroy their belief system.

It's an article of faith for me that those people should be preached the message of change. Politely, of course. Respectfully.

Are you a Christian?

Sometimes. But usually not. It's only a word.

I don't mind being quesitoned or disagreed with but I like it done respecftfully.

I agree.