A challenge to show me wrong

[ellenjanuary]

Originally Posted by Koldo

An open letter to all mankind?
Let's stop right here for a moment.
I don't remember the scriptures being written in every possible language on Earth from the start.

No? How about "In the beginning, god created the heavens and the earth." What's universal and timely in there? The trine: God, heavens, earth. What's modern in there? In the physical universe, the beginning of structure is the trine... ya know, I kinda still don't like the Bible, but that ain't the Bible's fault; that's the fault of people trying to tell me my scripture. I could completely ignore it, but I could completely ignore English; speak in math and art... or I can ignore the wailings of a million despots and the ten thousand names of god they try to shove down each other's throat. Or, as I did; listen for the single, clear tone of love, and learn what most do not. The clearest voice speaks from the Bible with one name: I am.

But like the tao say: it is the emptiness of the bucket that makes it useful, and there are other paths... but to dismiss scripture entirely? That'd be like me, in my bath towel with the sword of allah running down the street yelling, "allah akhbar!" It may be true, but for how long, if all my neighbors are on a Fox News terror alert?

[Adramelek]

After thinking about it and discussing these concepts with a good friend of mine, I have come to the following conclusions, which of course can change through further understanding on my part. For instance: was my becoming a disciple of the Left-Hand Path a free will decision or was it something I was compelled to do as a result of my seemingly natural inclination towards this path and a seemingly natural fascination by it by being exposed to it in the free society I live in? What if I was born into and lived in a society like that of the state of Iran? Would I have turned out the same way? Would I have become a Black Magician if I were raised in a fundamentalist Muslim state? I doubt it. I might have been naturally drawn to the beauty of the night and the darkness without ever knowing what it truly meant - I would have become a completely different person, a product of the strict fundamentalist Muslim society I lived in as I would have never been exposed to the sort of things that would have triggered that deeper Truth which lied dormant within my psyche.

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

[ellenjanuary]

Originally Posted by Adramelek

After thinking about it and discussing these concepts with a good friend of mine, I have come to the following conclusions, which of course can change through further understanding on my part. For instance: was my becoming a disciple of the Left-Hand Path a free will decision or was it something I was compelled to do as a result of my seemingly natural inclination towards this path and a seemingly natural fascination by it by being exposed to it in the free society I live in? What if I was born into and lived in a society like that of the state of Iran? Would I have turned out the same way? Would I have become a Black Magician if I were raised in a fundamentalist Muslim state? I doubt it. I might have been naturally drawn to the beauty of the night and the darkness without ever knowing what it truly meant - I would have become a completely different person, a product of the strict fundamentalist Muslim society I lived in as I would have never been exposed to the sort of things that would have triggered that deeper Truth which lied dormant within my psyche.

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

I know this fifty-year old girl with the spiritual maturity of my left big toe because her force-fed Christianity denies her inner witchcraft making her more like... witch. Then there's the Haggard Ted whose closeted imp was the flame for the anti- until the gay emerged. You may have been consumed and made bland by the great digestive society... or Set may have assumed the challenge to make the desert bloom.

And I love the math, I have no shame in being Normal to the Mean; but I know that of all I am, the world sees the Gwynnies in between...

[doppelgänger]

Originally Posted by idav

It is obvious that our influence has a huge impact in a cause and effect system. Our influence as it is now would impact the future in a ripple effect that is beyond what we can fathom.

"Our influence"? To what are you referring?

[Koldo]

Originally Posted by Willamena

So he had no choice? That usually means it was done "against his will."

His will determined the answer.
He didn't get to choose his own will though.

Originally Posted by Willamena

What is 'will' that's not free?

Simply 'will'.

[Koldo]

Originally Posted by ellenjanuary

No? How about "In the beginning, god created the heavens and the earth." What's universal and timely in there? The trine: God, heavens, earth. What's modern in there? In the physical universe, the beginning of structure is the trine... ya know, I kinda still don't like the Bible, but that ain't the Bible's fault; that's the fault of people trying to tell me my scripture. I could completely ignore it, but I could completely ignore English; speak in math and art... or I can ignore the wailings of a million despots and the ten thousand names of god they try to shove down each other's throat. Or, as I did; listen for the single, clear tone of love, and learn what most do not. The clearest voice speaks from the Bible with one name: I am.

But like the tao say: it is the emptiness of the bucket that makes it useful, and there are other paths... but to dismiss scripture entirely? That'd be like me, in my bath towel with the sword of allah running down the street yelling, "allah akhbar!" It may be true, but for how long, if all my neighbors are on a Fox News terror alert?

I fail to understand what all this has to do with my post.

[Adramelek]

Originally Posted by ellenjanuary

You may have been consumed and made bland by the great digestive society... or Set may have assumed the challenge to make the desert bloom.

Thanks ellenjanuary,

After contemplating your statement above a paradox occured to me. Concerning your beautifuly crafted words of the last sentence - There is a statement within a Magical text contained within one of the "Jeweled Tablets of Set" authored by the Temple of Set which states: "I (Set) shall roam this world, and shall come to those who seek me." If I were to have been raised in a totalitarian Islamic state and still had been Touched by the hand of That which Is Set, thus, compeling me to seek after more zealously the study, and practice the Black Arts, I would have to hide completely my beliefs or suffer the sentence of death for blasphemy (the inquisition comes to mind). Either that or try to escape to a western country.

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

[Willamena]

Originally Posted by Koldo

His will determined the answer.
He didn't get to choose his own will though.

Do you mean he didn't choose to have will, the same way he didn't choose to have a mind? But he still uses his mind (freely) (willfully).

[Koldo]

Originally Posted by Willamena

Do you mean he didn't choose to have will, the same way he didn't choose to have a mind? But he still uses his mind (freely) (willfully).

No, i mean it the same way he didn't chose which mind to have.
Anyway, i wouldn't say an individual uses his mind.
An individual is his mind.

[gnomon]

Originally Posted by doppelgänger

Here's a summary paper on the structure of testing for "theory of mind" tasks and autism, written by the current pre-eminent expert on the subject, cognitive psychologist Simon Baron-Cohen.

http://www.autism-community.com/wp-c...TD-and-ASD.pdf


Here are some abstracts. I may have a few of these papers in their full versions.

[The theory of the mind of the autistic child]. [Sante Ment Que. 1998] - PubMed result
[Theory of mind in Asperger syndrome]. [Encephale. 2007] - PubMed result
A new 'advanced' test of theory of mind: evidence ... [J Child Psychol Psychiatry. 2002] - PubMed result
Comparison of social cognitive functioning in schi... [Psychol Med. 2010] - PubMed result

Thank you!

Originally Posted by Adramelek

Personally, I really don't know what to think about all this. I've come to this thread late, but with all the intelligent arguments made convinces me that I made a good "choice" when I decided to join the RF of my own "free will". This site definitely stimulates my brain. My question is, is it possible for free will and pre-destination to co-exist?

Xeper.
/Adramelek\

I don't know if I can answer your question but this is where I'm at in the discussion.

Did free will bring you to this site? Or me to this site? Not possessing a memory of events that I could tie into a precise logical step by step conclusion that would have inevitably led me to this site I would say it appears to be free will. After all I do recall what the specific search term was in Google that brought this forum to my attention. After a discussion at a political forum I googled "religion, forum, evolution" and this site came up. I joined, admonished Darkdale and responded to a post about Hurricane Katrina and BAM.......I'm here. Still reading. In what would appear to be a number of unrelated events of coming home from work, reading posts on one forum, deciding to do a Google search on a subject, finding this forum and joining to make a couple of points.

However, it may just be I cannot account for all the aspects of my own personality, personal experiences and recalled memories that I'm simply not consciously aware of all the events as well as all events outside my own consciousness by others that inevitably led me here. So I'm thinking that we react on impulses under the illusion of free will because it is not possible for our brains to accurately and precisely record all the facts that lead us to certain events. Which may be what I call a useful illusion because I know some of the arguments brought about under the notion of predeterminism often related to criminal activity which I don't think a society could function if the majority of adherents followed that philosophy.