Only Absolute Proof of the Hereafter

[The Sum of Awe]

I just have a couple things to ask...

If there is no god and a hereafter, how would the hereafter exist?

If there is god and a hereafter, what is the point in dying?



Second question,

When we go into a coma, why are we unconscious? Our brain shuts down. This is the same thing that happens when we die, we lose consciousness by our brain shutting down. The only thing different is that our heart beat stops when we die.

Unless the soul is related to the heart (which I see no reason why it would be) then why don't we become a ghost or something when we are in a coma?

[horizon_mj1]

Originally Posted by ellenjanuary

I disagree. Religion was built from simulation. Some of the originators looked for answers; but many actually assumed oblivion, and used the soothing balm of religious folklore as a mantra to speak hereafter into being.

Besides, after? Eternity is timelessness.

Yeah I can see that point of view. I think that the ancients were a frightened people. All these things in nature with devastating wrath they could not understand let alone control I would guess could make your mind conger some pretty far fetched explanations.

[horizon_mj1]

Originally Posted by The Sum of Awe

I just have a couple things to ask...

If there is no god and a hereafter, how would the hereafter exist?

If there is god and a hereafter, what is the point in dying?

I don't think anything could exist without the hereafter any more than it could without matter. As far as God, well I think that can remain up to the individual. IMO there is more than the circle of life as we know it here on earth. Maybe the universe has its own "circle of life". This being said, maybe it is how we live life and the things we do (action and thought both) that will decide where are energies go after death and rather of not the conscious memory will be allowed to stay with these energies. Mind you this is theory of belief; MO is subject to change (as is my right, the same as everyone else).

Originally Posted by The Sum of Awe

Second question,

When we go into a coma, why are we unconscious? Our brain shuts down. This is the same thing that happens when we die, we lose consciousness by our brain shutting down. The only thing different is that our heart beat stops when we die.

Unless the soul is related to the heart (which I see no reason why it would be) then why don't we become a ghost or something when we are in a coma?

Did you know that for days after your brain "dies" there is still a readable brain wave. The reason for coma and being unconscious may be due to the body's inability to comprehend the pain in wakefulness. The soul on the other hand is something I do not think any of us posses. This is to be the pristine side of us and I think maybe the Divine would not trust most of us with it. I am not saying we do not have implications on our soul, I just don't think we "own" it.

[Mr.yadda yadda]

Originally Posted by horizon_mj1

I don't think anything could exist without the hereafter any more than it could without matter. As far as God, well I think that can remain up to the individual. IMO there is more than the circle of life as we know it here on earth. Maybe the universe has its own "circle of life". This being said, maybe it is how we live life and the things we do (action and thought both) that will decide where are energies go after death and rather of not the conscious memory will be allowed to stay with these energies. Mind you this is theory of belief; MO is subject to change (as is my right, the same as everyone else).



Did you know that for days after your brain "dies" there is still a readable brain wave. The reason for coma and being unconscious may be due to the body's inability to comprehend the pain in wakefulness. The soul on the other hand is something I do not think any of us posses. This is to be the pristine side of us and I think maybe the Divine would not trust most of us with it. I am not saying we do not have implications on our soul, I just don't think we "own" it.

Well put Horizon_mj1

[Orias]

Originally Posted by doorknob

Also your use of the word create is in applicable to the content. It is incorrect to say that energy is created by energy. That is not at all what happened Energy was transferred from one form to another. It wasn't being created, the law already states that it can't be created.

See, this is where the debate comes in

And yes, it is very applicable, because if it wasn't then nothing that we know would exist.

[Orias]

Originally Posted by The Sum of Awe

If there is no god and a hereafter, how would the hereafter exist?

Can you restate this question? It seems kind of rhetorical, since "If there is no god and a hereafter, how would a hereafter exist" is a bit misleading.

But I'll give it a shot.

A "God" is not required for something to exist after the here.

When we die, we still "exist" but are not alive. Most of the Universe is actually made up of dust (what we cannot see), which would be all of the solid matter (alive or just plain old existing) that has been broken down into the essence of what we call, "The Universe".

Originally Posted by The Sum of Awe

If there is god and a hereafter, what is the point in dying?

This question defeats itself

If there is a "God" and a hereafter, what is the point in living?

Hereafter, represents the subsequent chronology of now, though it does references "after life" it does not always have to represent "after life" or even practically apply to it.

When I die, others will still exist, my "after life" is simply what others will remember of me.

The epic of Gilgamesh touches down on this very deeply

Originally Posted by The Sum of Awe

When we go into a coma, why are we unconscious? Our brain shuts down. This is the same thing that happens when we die, we lose consciousness by our brain shutting down. The only thing different is that our heart beat stops when we die.

Well see here there is a big different between unconscious and death.

Our brain doesn't shut down during "unconsciousness", it is merely "inebriated", because if the brain completely shut down then our hearts would stop beating. The organs work together, when the brain shuts down, we die.

Unconsciousness is simply unawareness of your surroundings and thoughts.

Originally Posted by The Sum of Awe

Unless the soul is related to the heart (which I see no reason why it would be) then why don't we become a ghost or something when we are in a coma?

Because ghosts are physically impossible.

It's existence would defy the very meaning of gravity, as well as the actions of "For every action there is an equal and Opposite reaction", so if a ghost could "defy gravity" then it would constantly be flung through the depths of Earth and could never willingly establish itself in existence.

If it can walk through walls then it could fall through Earth, if there is no gravity to sustain it, then there is nothing to even keep it on this Earth, (hence the Heaven/Hell concepts of either being burdened with Sin or being enlightend with the knowledge of "God(but that is a topic for another time)).

[Wombat]

So...in summary...the energy that gives the appearance (illusion) of matter/substance can be transformed and redistributed and reformed...but cannot be destroyed...energy is eternal.

That which makes me, you, clouds, stars, flowers, your PC, bellybutton lint, diamonds and dog poo...is...in the end...no more than endlessly transforming indestructible energy.

There is no ‘thing’ that is not a manifestation of this eternal indestructible energy.

Yes? No?

This, to me, reflects a universe that screams out from every object and incessantly whispers from every thing - “I am the illusion of substance, I am the appearance of solidity and stuff...I am the Emperors New Clothes...I am, in fact, naked and eternal energy and I cannot be lost and I cannot be destroyed”.

And this is strange to me...For the diamond has no more value than the dog poo...they are both transitory energy masquerading as ‘things’...and there is no beautiful material ‘thing’ that will endure.

And yet....
There are other immaterial things...conceptual things...emotional things...intellectual things...

Things without form and substance underpinned by eternally transforming energy...

There is the delight and mutual recognition between the infant and I.

There is my wife’s sigh...of pleasure... and enduring/loving dismay at my stupidity.

There is the most joyous and beautiful creativity...the vision splendid, the ode to joy, the transporting narratives.

There is the keen intellect and brilliant insight, inventive and penetrating.

There is the laughter...wry and witty...ribald and rambunctious.

Love and friendship and family and community.

These...the most beautiful and precious things of all have no sustaining energy?

The energy of the diamond and the dog poo lives on eternally in other forms...but the creativity, intellect, love, joy, laughter and relationship have no sustaining energy and all die when the material vehicles break down to eternally transforming energy?

The energy of the dog poo lives on eternally...while the love dies for lack of sustaining energy?

Nhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puYt7B-tKQ8

[horizon_mj1]

Originally Posted by Orias

Because ghosts are physically impossible.

It's existence would defy the very meaning of gravity, as well as the actions of "For every action there is an equal and Opposite reaction", so if a ghost could "defy gravity" then it would constantly be flung through the depths of Earth and could never willingly establish itself in existence.

If it can walk through walls then it could fall through Earth, if there is no gravity to sustain it, then there is nothing to even keep it on this Earth, (hence the Heaven/Hell concepts of either being burdened with Sin or being enlightend with the knowledge of "God(but that is a topic for another time)).

You can not forget though that ghosts may exist with an altered "energy" (per say). Photons can easily pass through walls and hold consistency, which may lend an explanation to abilities of "walking" through walls. Also an energy stamped in the dimension in which we reside, may result in a "residual" energy trapped.

[horizon_mj1]

Wombat, may I ask you a question; all the very things you mentioned, you do not see as beautiful? Who said, and pray tell, where was it said that manifestations of energies put forth from these very deeps do not depend upon where or what your energies become after leaving this earth?

[Wombat]

Originally Posted by horizon_mj1

Wombat, may I ask you a question; all the very things you mentioned, you do not see as beautiful?

Love? Laughter? Creativity?......certainly I see them as "beautiful".
That is why I said-
"And yet....
There are other immaterial things...conceptual things...emotional things...intellectual things...

Things without form and substance underpinned by eternally transforming energy...(snip)

There is the most joyous and beautiful creativity...the vision splendid, the ode to joy, the transporting narratives.
..........(snip)
These...the most beautiful and precious things of all have no sustaining energy?"

Originally Posted by horizon_mj1

Who said, and pray tell, where was it said that manifestations of energies put forth from these very deeps do not depend upon where or what your energies become after leaving this earth?

Tis said by atheists, tis said by materialists, tis often said and frequently said here upon this board- that when one dies the energy that is the material form goes on to become something else...but the intellect, creativity, personality and all emotional qualities die and cease to exist with the passing of the sustaining material form.

This the atheist/materialists frequently say and believe.

I do not