Why do Gentiles assume they should follow the ten commandments?

[Whoitbe]

Doesn't the Torah say that it was given to the Jewish people? I'm not saying that they shouldnt follow them, but to say Gentiles were given the ten commandments as well - is absolutely false. Seemingly, this is something strongly disagreed on. Simple question, where in the Torah does it say that gentiles should keep shabbat? Does it say somewhere in the new testament that they should? Because if it brings it down upon them as obligatory. From a stringent point of view I'm asking an explanation - leniancy has a very moot standing in order to form proper exegetical analysis in the case of determining law. I.e. To say "this verse doesn't apply because it's outdated or was based off other religions at the time."*

Assuming one is to say that the Torah was given to Moses from G-d himself in it's full, then we are assuming that it holds divine authenticity. Though certain historical questions may arise in one reader to the next's mind, they're irrelevant to the matter which is being adressed. Based on an exegetical, lawful exposition of the Torah through context of scripture and/or any other alleged divinely inspired texts, history from a non-biblical standpoint is somewhat irrelevant to canonizing an authorative view point... Unless you're attempting to reform perspective on authenticity. You can still develop laws from and within the context of the Torah without knowing too much history. In other words from long held canonical texts and opinions, where do we arrive at the logic that a non Jew should keep shabbat based on textual analysis?*Simple as that. Forgive me if I'm being too wordy to ask a simple question, I just want to know how do Christians think they should participate in obliging themselves with the ten commandments. That's all.

[Levite]

Originally Posted by Whoitbe

Doesn't the Torah say that it was given to the Jewish people? I'm not saying that they shouldnt follow them, but to say Gentiles were given the ten commandments as well - is absolutely false. Seemingly, this is something strongly disagreed on. Simple question, where in the Torah does it say that gentiles should keep shabbat? Does it say somewhere in the new testament that they should? Because if it brings it down upon them as obligatory. From a stringent point of view I'm asking an explanation - leniancy has a very moot standing in order to form proper exegetical analysis in the case of determining law. I.e. To say "this verse doesn't apply because it's outdated or was based off other religions at the time."*

Assuming one is to say that the Torah was given to Moses from G-d himself in it's full, then we are assuming that it holds divine authenticity. Though certain historical questions may arise in one reader to the next's mind, they're irrelevant to the matter which is being adressed. Based on an exegetical, lawful exposition of the Torah through context of scripture and/or any other alleged divinely inspired texts, history from a non-biblical standpoint is somewhat irrelevant to canonizing an authorative view point... Unless you're attempting to reform perspective on authenticity. You can still develop laws from and within the context of the Torah without knowing too much history. In other words from long held canonical texts and opinions, where do we arrive at the logic that a non Jew should keep shabbat based on textual analysis?*Simple as that. Forgive me if I'm being too wordy to ask a simple question, I just want to know how do Christians think they should participate in obliging themselves with the ten commandments. That's all.

Whether you think that Torah was given by God to the Jewish people, or whether you think that Torah was written by Jewish authors for the Jewish people, the point remains the same. It's a Jewish text, with Jewish rules, intended for Jews, and designed to be interpreted by Jewish methodologies.

I get that Christians feel that somehow their covenant with Jesus entitles them to connect to Jewish text. But I have never understood the contention that while Jesus' covenant somehow frees them from the obligation to keep the commandments of the Old Covenant, they still free free to cite and rely upon those of the commandments that they like or relate to (like the Ten Commandments, or, in many cases those concerning homosexuality and other forbidden sexual relations; but they can dispense with those that they dislike or do not relate to, like keeping kosher, rules of shaatnez (forbidden mixtures, like linen and wool), or observing the holidays.

It's always seemed to me that Torah, and the obligation to do mitzvot (commandments) is entire: one either accepts the entirety of Torah and the attendant obligations, or one accepts none of it. But in Torah there is no rule of halfsies: one can redefine certain obligations using the rules of halakhah, but one cannot simply cherry-pick a few mitzvot you like, and then dispense with all of those you feel are too confining or troublesome, with a shrug and a whistle.

At least, that's how I understand things.

[Dena]

I've asked this same question. Usually I don't get a good answer but there are some who have a logical explanation. I disagree but it's still logical. Hopefully someone will speak up here.

[Zardoz]

I know that not everyone here is convinced that Noachide Law is authentic Halacha; or just a modern invention. To me, the Ten Commandments are of course given to the Jews, but they also contain most of the Noachide Laws. Therefore it is of benefit for the non-Jew to honor them. To be sure, the Shabbat law is problematic, but there is little chance that they would observe it as a Jew does.

Shalom

[Beta]

Originally Posted by Whoitbe

Doesn't the Torah say that it was given to the Jewish people?

Forgive me but this is as far as I read. When the foundation is false everything else is false and a waste of time.
The 10 Commandments were given to the children of Israel - a mixed multitude Ex.12; Ex.20. In the same chapter we read that all who lived alongside them came under the same law. Nowhere is stated that the Commandments (the spiritual laws mentioned in Rom.7 as holy, just and good) were given to the Jews only.
Jacob or Israel (as re-named by God) had 12 sons and not all were jewish Gen.35v22.
The Commandments are mentioned in the NT by Jesus and his Apostles so they can not be meaningless to Christians ???????

[Beta]

Originally Posted by Zardoz

I know that not everyone here is convinced that Noachide Law is authentic Halacha; or just a modern invention. To me, the Ten Commandments are of course given to the Jews, but they also contain most of the Noachide Laws. Therefore it is of benefit for the non-Jew to honor them. To be sure, the Shabbat law is problematic, but there is little chance that they would observe it as a Jew does.
Shalom

To be sure we (Christians) are to honour the 7th day Sabbath as instructed by God Lev.23, and not as observed by Jews who were not the only ones to receive the Commandments (please see my prev.post). Jesus had much to say about wrong jewish practices and we should not look to them for guidance. JESUS is OUR Teacher and EXAMPLE and we need no other.

[Beta]

Originally Posted by Levite

...... or observing the holidays.

Do you not mean ' the holy days ' ?
There surely is a vast difference between traditional christian holidays and God's commanded holy days ?

[ben d]

Originally Posted by Whoitbe

I just want to know how do Christians think they should participate in obliging themselves with the ten commandments. That's all.

I don't confine my religious practice just to Christianity, but the intrinsic worth and wisdom of the ten commandments always seemed to me as being both inspired and yet simultaneously common sense, and has always been the general principles on which my conscience is based.

IOW, the ten commandments to me are not something that merely needs compliance because they are commandments of G-d, but they speak to my heart directly as being self evidently the way all human beings should live their life.

[james2ko]

Originally Posted by Whoitbe

Simple question, where in the Torah does it say that gentiles should keep shabbat? Does it say somewhere in the new testament that they should?

Mar 2:27 "And He said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, [not just the Jews] and not man for the Sabbath." [emphasis mine]

One of the definitions, according to Thayer's Lexicon, for this word is: a)generically, to include all human individuals. If it was just for the Jews, Jesus must have made some kind of mistake.

See here for further discussion about the Sabbath and Mosaic Law.

[Whoitbe]

Originally Posted by Beta

Forgive me but this is as far as I read. When the foundation is false everything else is false and a waste of time.
The 10 Commandments were given to the children of Israel - a mixed multitude Ex.12; Ex.20. In the same chapter we read that all who lived alongside them came under the same law. Nowhere is stated that the Commandments (the spiritual laws mentioned in Rom.7 as holy, just and good) were given to the Jews only.
Jacob or Israel (as re-named by God) had 12 sons and not all were jewish Gen.35v22.
The Commandments are mentioned in the NT by Jesus and his Apostles so they can not be meaningless to Christians ???????

Right, but the children of Israel were the Jewish people through technicality. Technically, even though the term Jew comes from yehuda(Judah), a Levi or a danite is just as much entitled to the laws apart from a few minor ones regarding obligations upon the Levites and kohanim(priestly sons of aharon). There may have been mixed multitudes among them -but they were not counted as the children of Israel. And exodus 20 doesn't say anything about a mixed multitude. If you're reading from a bible translated from a Septuagint it might (or in other words, a bible translated from a translation of the bible - I.e. The kjv and most other bibles on the market), maybe it does say that. There is no question that the Israelites were, in the contemporary sense of the word, Jews. As the word Jew is effectively a blanket term for Israelites.


49. There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who resides in your midst." מט. תּוֹרָה אַחַת יִהְיֶה לָאֶזְרָח וְלַגֵּר הַגָּר בְּתוֹכְכֶם:

This is what you're referring to to support your claim? Correct me if I'm wrong, but... There's more than one law. Do you count the 10 commandments as one law... Or the entire Torah? Because, there's a lot more than 10 commandments. According to our tradition (the Jewish one), there's 613 specific ones. But if you counted each and every one of them, there'd be thousands. So, you explain to me what "one law" means when this chapter is talking about Pesach(Passover). If you understand this verse citing one law to mean G-d's law, then since this is before the ten commandments/Torah was given(after all, this entire chapter/parsha deals with when the Jews were in egypt), what laws/religious customs do you think the majority population would be/were following? My guess perforce, under these pretenses, is that they would only be obligated to follow the noahide commandments and ones which came in between until this point, such as circumcision. When I say they, I'm referring to Israelites.

Let's take a look at chapter 20, shall we? G-d says:

2. "I am the Lord, your God, Who took you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. ב. אָנֹכִי יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֱלֹהֶיךָ אֲשֶׁר הוֹצֵאתִיךָ מֵאֶרֶץ מִצְרַיִם מִבֵּית עֲבָדִים:

Who is this "you?" Did he take the Nations out of Egypt? So, if we can understand that G-d did take the Israelites out of Egypt, *then certainly, these verses in the sane chapter and parsha:

9. Six days may you work and perform all your labor, ט. שֵׁשֶׁת יָמִים תַּעֲבֹד וְעָשִׂיתָ כָּל מְלַאכְתֶּךָ:

10. but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord, your God; you shall perform no labor, neither you, your son, your daughter, your manservant, your maidservant, your beast, nor your stranger who is in your cities. י. וְיוֹם הַשְּׁבִיעִי שַׁבָּת לַי־הֹוָ־ה אֱלֹהֶיךָ לֹא תַעֲשֶׂה כָל מְלָאכָה אַתָּה וּבִנְךָ וּבִתֶּךָ עַבְדְּךָ וַאֲמָתְךָ וּבְהֶמְתֶּךָ וְגֵרְךָ אֲשֶׁר בִּשְׁעָרֶיךָ:

17. But Moses said to the people, "Fear not, for God has come in order to exalt you, and in order that His awe shall be upon your faces, so that you shall not sin." יז. וַיֹּאמֶר מֹשֶׁה אֶל-הָעָם אַל-תִּירָאוּ כִּי לְבַעֲבוּר נַסּוֹת אֶתְכֶם בָּא הָאֱלֹהִים וּבַעֲבוּר תִּהְיֶה יִרְאָתוֹ עַל-פְּנֵיכֶם לְבִלְתִּי תֶחֱטָאוּ:

And every single time in this context G-d says the word "you", it is implying the children of Israel.*To further my point, *it*says "your stranger who is in your cities." Obviously it was necessary to seperate between a stranger and an Israelite. And also, it says IN YOIR CITIES. As in the land which G-d gave to the jews.**

So, why does G-d speak to the jews in this commandment following commandment:

12. Honor your father and your mother, in order that your days be lengthened on the land that the Lord, your God, is giving you. יב. כַּבֵּד אֶת אָבִיךָ וְאֶת אִמֶּךָ לְמַעַן יַאֲרִכוּן יָמֶיךָ עַל הָאֲדָמָה אֲשֶׁר יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֱלֹהֶיךָ נֹתֵן לָךְ: