Judaism and Hellenization (Jesus, moral, Moses, Earth, gospel)

[angellous_evangellous]

A question keeps popping up among some associates of mine about how the Jews adjusted to Hellenization between 330BCE and 300CE, with particular attention to how Jesus, Paul, and Peter could eat non-kosher foods as first-century Jews.

My *speculation* is that only very pious Jews kept all of the deitary laws, and since they had been adjusting to Hellenism and Greco-Roman rule and influence already for at least 300 years at the time of Christ, the teachings on food had precedence in Judaism, at least among the "laypeople." Granted, the Maccabean revolt does not qualify as "adjustment," but Jews were reversing circumscision after Herod the Great started holding games just outside of Jerusalem. Also, there were four parties of different Jewish sects fighting eachother for control over Jerusalem in 136 CE when Hadrian came to put down a rebellion. I think that there could have been plenty of Jews, particularly the tax collectors and non-pious ones, who could have eaten pork and broke the Sabbath before Christ and Paul.

A friend looked at me as if I had lost my mind when I talked about this...

[Jayhawker Soule]

Originally Posted by angellous_evangellous

My theory is ...

1. Why is it so difficult for some to distinguish between 'theory' and 'speculation'?
2. What is the evidence of a Yeshua violating kashrut?

[angellous_evangellous]

Originally Posted by Deut. 10:19

1. Why is it so difficult for some to distinguish between 'theory' and 'speculation'?
2. What is the evidence of a Yeshua violating kashrut?

1. I editied the OP.
2. I am wondering if it would be a waste of time to look for this evidence. At this time, all of my energy is focused on other things. I was simply remembering lectures and reading about the Maccabean period, and my professor taught that the revolt was lead by fanatics that did not represent the views of the larger population. As I remember the lectures, the Maccabees raided the countryside killing Jews who broke deitary laws and broke the Sabbath, bringing the less pious Jews into submission.

[Deut 13:1]

Originally Posted by angellous_evangellous

A question keeps popping up among some associates of mine about how the Jews adjusted to Hellenization between 330BCE and 300CE, with particular attention to how Jesus, Paul, and Peter could eat non-kosher foods as first-century Jews.

My *speculation* is that only very pious Jews kept all of the deitary laws, and since they had been adjusting to Hellenism and Greco-Roman rule and influence already for at least 300 years at the time of Christ, the teachings on food had precedence in Judaism, at least among the "laypeople." Granted, the Maccabean revolt does not qualify as "adjustment," but Jews were reversing circumscision after Herod the Great started holding games just outside of Jerusalem. Also, there were four parties of different Jewish sects fighting eachother for control over Jerusalem in 136 CE when Hadrian came to put down a rebellion. I think that there could have been plenty of Jews, particularly the tax collectors and non-pious ones, who could have eaten pork and broke the Sabbath before Christ and Paul.

A friend looked at me as if I had lost my mind when I talked about this...

So what? Some Jews didn't keep it a hundred percent. Kind of like how some Americans don't keep marriage laws 100%. The law says we can only eat certain things, have to wait in between dairy and meat, so we do it. Some Jews may choose not to, but why does it matter? It had a lot to do w/ Jesus and his people... It's easy to keep kosher in Brooklyn NY around Kingston because everyone does it, it's hard to keep kosher in an area where there are 3 jews are not a lot of choices. It's not a hard concept to understand. The places where the Jesus cult was popular, some Jews prolly sinned more. Again, why should we care about this observation, what purpose are you trying to get at w/ this thread?

[angellous_evangellous]

Originally Posted by Binyamin

So what? Some Jews didn't keep it a hundred percent. Kind of like how some Americans don't keep marriage laws 100%. The law says we can only eat certain things, have to wait in between dairy and meat, so we do it. Some Jews may choose not to, but why does it matter? It had a lot to do w/ Jesus and his people... It's easy to keep kosher in Brooklyn NY around Kingston because everyone does it, it's hard to keep kosher in an area where there are 3 jews are not a lot of choices. It's not a hard concept to understand. The places where the Jesus cult was popular, some Jews prolly sinned more. Again, why should we care about this observation, what purpose are you trying to get at w/ this thread?

That is precisely my point. I think that it appeals to common sense that some non-pious Jews would be assimilated into the Greco-Roman society and leave behind some of their religious identification.

Purpose of the thread is to see if anyone is reading about how Hellenized the Jews were between 300BCE and 200CE. I have an associate that keeps pestering me with dietary questions and I don't have time to look it up.

[jewscout]

Originally Posted by angellous_evangellous

That is precisely my point. I think that it appeals to common sense that some non-pious Jews would be assimilated into the Greco-Roman society and leave behind some of their religious identification

well this makes some sense. we see that in today's society as well. Jews assimilating into non-jewish culture and losing their jewish identity is nothing new.

Originally Posted by angellous_evangellous

with particular attention to how Jesus, Paul, and Peter could eat non-kosher foods as first-century Jews

upon what basis do you determine what jesus's diet was?

Originally Posted by angellous_evangellous

Purpose of the thread is to see if anyone is reading about how Hellenized the Jews were between 300BCE and 200CE. I have an associate that keeps pestering me with dietary questions and I don't have time to look it up.

i haven't read a great deal on the subject but from what little i know i think that many jews of the time had assimilated into hellenistic culture...but like i said i haven't read alot on it and don't really have the time either so don't quote me on that...

[angellous_evangellous]

Originally Posted by jewscout

well this makes some sense. we see that in today's society as well. Jews assimilating into non-jewish culture and losing their jewish identity is nothing new.

upon what basis do you determine what jesus's diet was?

i haven't read a great deal on the subject but from what little i know i think that many jews of the time had assimilated into hellenistic culture...but like i said i haven't read alot on it and don't really have the time either so don't quote me on that...

I do assent to the fact that the historical Jesus is lost - we can only access Jesus in the Gospel traditions and other early Christian material like the letters of Paul. From reading the NT, I think that both Jesus and Paul did not teach that their Jewish followers had to remain kosher in their (proto-)Christian context.

I can cite some traditions:

Acts 10 (ESV)
9The next day, as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the housetop about the sixth hour[b] to pray. 10And he became hungry and wanted something to eat, but while they were preparing it, he fell into a trance 11and saw the heavens opened and something like a great sheet descending, being let down by its four corners upon the earth. 12In it were all kinds of animals and reptiles and birds of the air. 13And there came a voice to him: "Rise, Peter; kill and eat." 14But Peter said, "By no means, Lord; for I have never eaten anything that is common or unclean." 15And the voice came to him again a second time, "What God has made clean, do not call common."

Mark 7 - from Jesus
14And he called the people to him again and said to them, "Hear me, all of you, and understand: 15There is nothing outside a person that by going into him can defile him, but the things that come out of a person are what defile him."[e] 17And when he had entered the house and left the people, his disciples asked him about the parable. 18And he said to them, "Then are you also without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile him, 19since it enters not his heart but his stomach, and is expelled?"[f] (Thus he declared all foods clean.) 20And he said, "What comes out of a person is what defiles him. 21For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. 23All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person."

The judgement in Acts 15 does not include refraining from pork, but includes other deitary restrictions:

19Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, 20but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. 21For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues."

Paul's teaching in Romans 14:
14I know and am persuaded in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself, but it is unclean for anyone who thinks it unclean.