Question for Atheists: about your view of the world

[Just_me_Mike]

Originally Posted by Just_me_Mike
If justice has to do with an individual, what makes one nations agreed upon rules any better or worse then the next?

Originally Posted by Father Heathen

Humans must make their own justice.

Originally Posted by Father Heathen

How their rules most benefit all of their citizens and how their standards compare when it comes to rights, freedom and equality.

So which one is it Father Heathen? We can make our own up? Or is it we must compare the benefits to right, freedom and equality?

I would hardly call using rights, freedom and equality as a "standard" and in the same breath state human "must" make their own justice as being the same thing.

[YmirGF]

Originally Posted by Just_me_Mike

If you were asked, and you are right now, do you feel the natural world or all that you know and experience operates on a fundamental that nothing is particularly fair. In other words the world is naturally an unjust place.

Could you please comment? Thanks...

In my world view, there is no justice and life is not fair. I have no problem with that. It is helpful being aware of this however as I tend to not get lost in delusional expectations.

[bobhikes]

Originally Posted by Just_me_Mike

If justice has to do with an individual, what makes one nations agreed upon rules any better or worse then the next?
Do you never look at a nation and say, this one is better or worse than that one?
I suspect you don't if you really feel there is no real justice.

Your opinion is all that makes anything better than the next and I and you can have an opinion.

[Just_me_Mike]

Originally Posted by 9-10ths_Penguin

I don't think it is.

I fail to see why "not universal" is somehow supposed to imply "not important" or "not real".

A mothers love is important and real, but certainly not always universal. So I never said something not universal couldn't be real and important.

However, I can show how justice in the sense of human decency is not something we can wish away or reduce with semantics (though we often do) to be something that is just "important" or "real", but in fact exists as a truth no different than any other law.

In the OP, I ask about an Atheists view of justice in the world, because I am interested in the particular arguments that they might have to suggest justice or human decency is subjective.

[Just_me_Mike]

Originally Posted by YmirGF

In my world view, there is no justice and live is not fair. I have no problem with that. It is helpful being aware of this however as I tend to not get lost in delusional expectations.

Does this also apply to human beings, there is no true justice or human decency? Or are we different than the universe?

[Just_me_Mike]

Originally Posted by bobhikes

Your opinion is all that makes anything better than the next and I and you can have an opinion.

If it was a matter of opinion, than I would agree one sense of decency would be just as good as another. However, that is not what we experience in reality is it? Morals have progressed. Since they progress there has to be a standard by which the get "better"
Do you assert morals have not improved over time from one nation to the next? Though we often fail at maintaining them, surely you won't say morals have not progressed will you?

[Caladan]

Originally Posted by Just_me_Mike

If you were asked, and you are right now, do you feel the natural world or all that you know and experience operates on a fundamental that nothing is particularly fair. In other words the world is naturally an unjust place.

Could you please comment? Thanks...

Justice is a scarce commodity, and has always been. a few gods might be just, but even they get crucified in the real world, so even the gods deserve no justice.

[Father Heathen]

Originally Posted by Just_me_Mike

Originally Posted by Just_me_Mike
If justice has to do with an individual, what makes one nations agreed upon rules any better or worse then the next?





So which one is it Father Heathen? We can make our own up? Or is it we must compare the benefits to right, freedom and equality?

I would hardly call using rights, freedom and equality as a "standard" and in the same breath state human "must" make their own justice as being the same thing.

Where exactly do you see the inconsistency? Societies consist of humans, we create competing values and ideals, the bad ones fade with time while the good ones spread and improve with time. I'm saying that the values and ideals that embody rights, freedom and equality for all (as values and ideals derived using logic and innate compassion naturally will) have proven to be superior to values and ideals that do not. And by humans making their own justice I meant that nature or an invisible sky daddy isn't going to provide it for them. If you look at the abrahamic portrayal of god, it's an absolutely horrible example of justice and decency.

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Originally Posted by Just_me_Mike

A mothers love is important and real, but certainly not always universal. So I never said something not universal couldn't be real and important.

So then why did you tell Wandered Off that for him, there is no "real sense of justice"?

Originally Posted by Just_me_Mike

However, I can show how justice in the sense of human decency is not something we can wish away or reduce with semantics (though we often do) to be something that is just "important" or "real", but in fact exists as a truth no different than any other law.

In what way?

Originally Posted by Just_me_Mike

In the OP, I ask about an Atheists view of justice in the world, because I am interested in the particular arguments that they might have to suggest justice or human decency is subjective.

But again: why atheists? When it comes right down to it, theists don't have any other objective sources of justice than atheists do. As I said before, God is not a source of objective morality.

[Just_me_Mike]

Originally Posted by Caladan

Justice is a scarce commodity, and has always been. a few gods might be just, but even they get crucified in the real world, so even the gods deserve no justice.

This may be true, but the question is does your worldview allow for a universal justice, and so I am not confusing people I am referring to a law of human decency that exists, that we all use to advance our sense of morality.