Portugal decriminalizes drugs; Crime/Usage falls.

[Magic Man]

Originally Posted by kai

Mball i think your being naive and i will tell you why.

in my country the "UK " ciggarretes and alcohol are legal but smuggled and counterfiet cigarretes and alcohol are big business a lot of the people that deal in these items also deal drugs now why would legalising personal possession stop them selling druggs?

I never said it would. Legalizing drugs isn't going to magically get rid of all the problems. What it will do is lessen them.

why would legalising the sale of drugs stop smugglers selling drugs unles they were so cheap as to not being worth the bother or even free. there is nothing that is for sale on a legal basis that isnt for sale on the black market now is there?

I'm sure there is a black market for most things. How many people use the black market for things that are legal, though?

and how does any of that ease the plague that is heroin addiction and the crime wave that follows it in my country tell me? because they can buy it in a shop ? so what ! they can buy it now ----they have to get the money to buy it first and like i said ask any addict they dont give a monkeys if its legal or not--- their addicts.

As I said, the fact that they don't care whether or not it's legal because they're going to do it anyway is only a case for legalizing it. The idea of making it illegal is to get people to stop using it, but clearly it doesn't work like that. What helps ease the plague of heroin addiction are things like better education and better addressing of the actual problem, rather than just saying "You can't do this". But again, it's not like legalizing drugs is going to magically make everyone stop doing them. I never said it would. What I say is that it'll help, even if only slightly, with addictions, but more than that it'll bring in revenue for something that's going to happen whether or not it's legal.

Ok dont prosecute them for drugs, just the crimes they commit to get the drugs and again big deal! hows that going to help?

What do you mean, how's going to help? It's going to help because then we don't put people in jail for just using drugs. That means less money spent on jailing and police, for one. It also means more money from the taxes on the product. And it means instead of putting people in jail, which doesn't actually help an addict, we get them treatment so that they hopefully stop committing those crimes for their addiction.

[kai]

Originally Posted by mball1297

I never said it would. Legalizing drugs isn't going to magically get rid of all the problems. What it will do is lessen them.



I'm sure there is a black market for most things. How many people use the black market for things that are legal, though? many many people buy tax free tobbacco and alcohol here.



As I said, the fact that they don't care whether or not it's legal because they're going to do it anyway is only a case for legalizing it. The idea of making it illegal is to get people to stop using it, but clearly it doesn't work like that. What helps ease the plague of heroin addiction are things like better education and better addressing of the actual problem, rather than just saying "You can't do this". But again, it's not like legalizing drugs is going to magically make everyone stop doing them. I never said it would. What I say is that it'll help, even if only slightly, with addictions, but more than that it'll bring in revenue for something that's going to happen whether or not it's legal.

I dont think its workable if you want revenue from it , it has to be much much cheaper than smugglers and then theres the fact that dealers give credit.


What do you mean, how's going to help? It's going to help because then we don't put people in jail for just using drugs. That means less money spent on jailing and police, for one. It also means more money from the taxes on the product. And it means instead of putting people in jail, which doesn't actually help an addict, we get them treatment so that they hopefully stop committing those crimes for their addiction.

i think the numbers of people actually in jail for small amounts of drugs that could be labelled personal possession are very small. Our jails have all the treatment programs any one needs but you have to want to clean up. I support treatment for "offenders" otherwise they are under the radar and only come to light when the drug addiction is cited as a mitigating circumstance in another crime. Of course i am mainly talking about what we call class A drugs like Heroin.

[Magic Man]

Originally Posted by kai

many many people buy tax free tobbacco and alcohol here.

Really? How many? And is it more or fewer than would buy them tax-free if they were illegal?

I dont think its workable if you want revenue from it , it has to be much much cheaper than smugglers and then theres the fact that dealers give credit.

No, it doesn't. Most people would pay a little extra to get something from a legal source rather than an illegal one. Again, the vast majority of people, at least in America, buy cigarettes and alcohol from legal stores.

i think the numbers of people actually in jail for small amounts of drugs that could be labelled personal possession are very small.

Whether or not the number is small, there are still people in jail for something that shouldn't put them in jail. Plus, we're still paying cops to waste time with these things.

[kai]

Originally Posted by mball1297

Really? How many? And is it more or fewer than would buy them tax-free if they were illegal?
i dont know how many exactly but its all down to price , its cheaper to buy the smuggled stuff because we tax alcohol and tobacco to the hilt here. around 77% of the price of a packet of cigarettes is tax


No, it doesn't. Most people would pay a little extra to get something from a legal source rather than an illegal one. Again, the vast majority of people, at least in America, buy cigarettes and alcohol from legal stores. I am sure they do and most people are not heroin addicts either and like i keep saying an addict doesn't care if its legal or not



Whether or not the number is small, there are still people in jail for something that shouldn't put them in jail. Plus, we're still paying cops to waste time with these things.

sure! as i said i am ok with it i just don't sing its praises too much because i think its negligible

[Magic Man]

Originally Posted by kai

sure! as i said i am ok with it i just don't sing its praises too much because i think its negligible

Well, it's certainly not negligible. It's not a fix-all perfect solution, but it would certainly help decrease expenses and increase revenue. It would also most likely decrease the number of addicts and crime associated with doing drugs (other than the actual crime of having or distributing the drugs).

[Mercy Not Sacrifice]

Originally Posted by kai

supply and demand though isn't it! Dealers suck you in by giving you credit and like i said its dirt cheap here anyway, the addicts just need more and more and don't give a hoot whether its legal or not. The only way you put dealers out of business is make the drug disappear or give it away. Our problems not with personal possession never has been its about how addicts get the money to buy the stuff and that's through petty crime and lots of it. now if it was free there wouldn't be a problem except for who pays to bury them.

Dirt cheap drugs? Don't tell a largely American forum that...

Seriously, it doesn't take too much research to learn that drugs here are insanely expensive, well above the price of what they would be on the legal market. Even an extreme luxury tax on drugs couldn't begin to bring the prices back to what they are now.

FYI drugs are not going away. That much is certain.

[kai]

Originally Posted by Mercy Not Sacrifice

Dirt cheap drugs? Don't tell a largely American forum that...

Seriously, it doesn't take too much research to learn that drugs here are insanely expensive, well above the price of what they would be on the legal market. Even an extreme luxury tax on drugs couldn't begin to bring the prices back to what they are now.

FYI drugs are not going away. That much is certain.

Its seems like we are the opposite to you then we have expensive alcohol and cigarettes and petrol due to high taxation (making smuggling and counterfeiting a profitable business) and cheap drugs.

and i am well aware of the fact drugs are not going away

[kai]

Originally Posted by mball1297

Well, it's certainly not negligible. It's not a fix-all perfect solution, but it would certainly help decrease expenses and increase revenue. It would also most likely decrease the number of addicts and crime associated with doing drugs (other than the actual crime of having or distributing the drugs).

in the uK 80% of people dealt with for possession are given a warning or a caution. Less than 1% - around 1,000 people a year - go to jail.* i can only speak from experience about jail terms for possession of small quantities of drugs.which in my experience is negligible.At the youth centre where i work no one has been jailed of for possession but mainly for burglary and theft carried out in order to get money to buy Heroin making possession legal would have no effect on this . and yes they would buy it from a legal source if they could but what possible difference does it make where they buy it? they still need to get the money from somewhere.

Making possession legal would effect the number of addicts how? why would a heroin addict be less likely to take heroin if its legal to possess it? and most crime associated with drugs in my country revolves around stealing so how would legal possession reduce that? how would making possession and distribution legal effect girls that enter into prostitution in order to maintain their addiction?


If its not possible to eradicate drugs like Heroin ( and i fail to see why not if only you could get the will for it internationally) then what's needed is a radical shift in thinking forget making any money out of it for the state , drugs would have to be free or very nearly free in order to eradicate criminal behaviour associated with drugs. and we would have to be prepared to shoulder the burden of rehabilitation /medical costs and social security to cover the human costs.Drugs like Heroin call so strongly that most men and women abandon their morals and their responsibilities and the state would have to pick up the bill.



http://www.nwph.info/ukfocalpoint/

[Magic Man]

Originally Posted by kai

in the uK 80% of people dealt with for possession are given a warning or a caution. Less than 1% - around 1,000 people a year - go to jail.*

That's still 1,000 people a year. As a percentage it may be small, but that's still a large number of people considering what a waste of time it is to put them in jail.

and yes they would buy it from a legal source if they could but what possible difference does it make where they buy it? they still need to get the money from somewhere.

The difference it makes is that they'd have a much higher chance of avoiding bad drugs, as in drugs that have a defect that could cause serious harm to the user. If drugs were regulated, you could be pretty sure that what you're getting isn't going to kill or severely harm you with unintended side effects.

Making possession legal would effect the number of addicts how? why would a heroin addict be less likely to take heroin if its legal to possess it?

These are two very different questions. In the second, you're assuming the "addict" part already. Whether or not they're legal, an addict is going to use them. However, the question is how many people are going to become addicts when it's legal vs. when it's illegal.

and most crime associated with drugs in my country revolves around stealing so how would legal possession reduce that? how would making possession and distribution legal effect girls that enter into prostitution in order to maintain their addiction?

It would lower the overall numbers of people who get addicted.

If its not possible to eradicate drugs like Heroin ( and i fail to see why not if only you could get the will for it internationally) then what's needed is a radical shift in thinking forget making any money out of it for the state , drugs would have to be free or very nearly free in order to eradicate criminal behaviour associated with drugs. and we would have to be prepared to shoulder the burden of rehabilitation /medical costs and social security to cover the human costs.Drugs like Heroin call so strongly that most men and women abandon their morals and their responsibilities and the state would have to pick up the bill.



Welcome to UK Focal Point

Wait, you're worried about the number of people doing drugs, and what you want to do is give them away for free?

[dust1n]

Originally Posted by kai

i disagree what makes you think a legal distributor can sell Cheaper
i base my assumption on the UK alcohol and tobacco market to think that smugglers etc can undercut legal sources by half. and its supply and demand that fuels the cost. a bag of heroine in my town is £5 now if you can sell it for £2.50 then ---wahey they will buy two bags instead of one.

and how many heroine addicts do you know that hold down a job? we are already subsidising them on benefits as well as free drugs such as Methadone.


decriminalising personal possession is window dressing, most addicts are in prison for theft, shoplifting etc. the fact that the bag of heroine in my pocket is legal has no bearing whatsoever on the fact that when its gone i am going to need another one and i am going to get one hook or by crook.

I can see where your point is at, but what is to say that all drug users would go for the sanctity of a bit smaller of a price/ They would lose business which will increase prices for them anyways. That, and no one likes dealing with dealers. They often only do it because they have to.