The Nazi's,the Muslim Brotherhood and Palestine

[Mr Cheese]

actually the conflict goes back a few thousand years to David and Goliath...if you wish to get anally retentive about it...

[KatNotKathy]

Originally Posted by England my lionheart

In any other conflict it would be war but because it involves Israel they are war crimes,Britain probably killed more Women and Children in one Month of Bombing Germany during WW2 than has been killed in Palestine with no mention of warcrime.

Uh...but the firebombing of German cities was a war crime by all modern definitions. What's your point?

Edit: It's the idea that Israel's illegal use of white phosphorous as an incendiary, destruction of civilian structures, and blockades preventing necessary supplies from crossing into Palestine are "just war" that gives Hamas justification to launch model rockets at back at civilians.

[Mr Cheese]

Originally Posted by KatNotKathy

Uh...but the firebombing of German cities was a war crime by all modern definitions. What's your point?

Edit: It's the idea that Israel's illegal use of white phosphorous as an incendiary, destruction of civilian structures, and blockades preventing necessary supplies from crossing into Palestine are "just war" that gives Hamas justification to launch model rockets at back at civilians.

I don't think either side are sane...

both need their bottom's spanked....

[KatNotKathy]

Originally Posted by Mr Cheese

I don't think either side are sane...

both need their bottom's spanked....

Agreed, but the power dynamics here are critical. Hamas is powerless compared to the IDF. While Hamas has been sending poorly-constructed rockets at the Israelis, the IDF is blockading water filters, bombing schools in "surgical strikes" and destroying innocent people's homes. Neither side are "the good guys", but Hamas is like a toddler trying to fight a pro wrestler, with innocent Palestinians (and Israelis) who probably want nothing but a peaceful life are getting killed. Palestinians are only supporting Hamas because they're the only ones willing to stand up to them while the Israeli military makes their life hell. Israel has all the cards here and can bring an end to the vast majority of the bloodshed unilaterally.

[Caladan]

Originally Posted by KatNotKathy

Palestinians are only supporting Hamas because they're the only ones willing to stand up to them while the Israeli military makes their life hell. Israel has all the cards here and can bring an end to the vast majority of the bloodshed unilaterally.

Hamas was elected because the Palestinians wanted to make an electoral protest of the Palestinian authority's corruption. right now the Gazans are equally if not more dismayed by the Hamas regime, with 37% of the Gaza strip population in favor of Hamas according to recent Pew Research Center survey.

[England my lionheart]

Originally Posted by KatNotKathy

Uh...but the firebombing of German cities was a war crime by all modern definitions. What's your point?

Edit: It's the idea that Israel's illegal use of white phosphorous as an incendiary, destruction of civilian structures, and blockades preventing necessary supplies from crossing into Palestine are "just war" that gives Hamas justification to launch model rockets at back at civilians.

What gives Hamas justification to fire Rockets into Israel is its Charter,whether Israel sits behind its borders and does'nt retaliate or not it makes no difference.

Peaceful Solutions, Initiatives and International Conferences Article Thirteen
The initiatives, the so-called peace solutions, and the international conferences for resolving the Palestinian problem stand in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement, for to neglect any part of Palestine is to neglect part of the Islamic faith. The nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its [Islamic] faith. It is in the light of this principle that its members are educated, and they wage jihad in order to raise the banner of Allah over the homeland.
"And Allah has full control over His affairs; but most people do not know." (Koran, 12:21)
From time to time there are calls to hold an international conference in order to seek a solution for the [Palestinian] problem. Some accept this [proposal] and some reject it, for one reason or another, demanding the fulfillment of some condition or conditions before they agree to hold the conference and participate in it. However, the Islamic Resistance Movement - since it is familiar with the parties participating in the conference and with their past and current positions on the issues of the Muslims - does not believe that these conferences can meet the demands or restore the rights [of the Palestinians], or bring equity to the oppressed. These conferences are nothing but a way to give the infidels power of arbitration over Muslim land, and when have the infidels ever been equitable towards the believers?
"The Jews will never be content with you, nor will the Christians, until you follow their religion. Say: 'The guidance of Allah is the right guidance.' But if you follow their desires after the knowledge which has come to you, then you shall have no protector or guardian from Allah." (Koran, 2:120) There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are a waste of time and a farce. The Palestinian people is far too eminent to have its future, its rights and its destiny toyed with. As stated in the Hadith: "The people of Al-Sha'm are [Allah's] rod in His land. Through them, He wreaks vengeance on whomever He wishes among His servants. The hypocrites among them are not allowed to be superior to the believers among them, and they shall die in grief and distress." (Recorded by Al-Tabarani with a chain of transmitters to Muhammad, and by Ahmad [Ibn Hanbal] with an incomplete chain of transmitters to Muhammad which may be the accurate record, the transmitters in both cases being trustworthy - Allah alone is omniscient).

[monta]

Originally Posted by Mr Cheese

actually the conflict goes back a few thousand years to David and Goliath...if you wish to get anally retentive about it...

For my own edification in order to better understand this situation I have been trying to work out a timeline for Palestine from the biblical era onwards.
I thought it might be interesting for others, to get a more complete overview of the situation. I have only gone to 1949,so far.

I am sure you will let me know if there are glaring errors , biases or ommisions

Spoiler for 539 BC to 1882 AD:

539 B.C. the Persians conquered the Babylonians. The Jewish Temple, destroyed by the Babylonians

516 BC Under Persian rule the Jewish temple was rebuilt

333 BC Alexander the Great of Macedon, conquered the area succeeded by Seleucid Antiochus IV (Antiochus Epiphanes) whose attempts to impose Hellenism brought a Jewish revolt under the Maccabees

142 BC Maccabees set up a new Jewish State

63 BC, when Pompey conquered the region for Rome

66 AD the Jewish People Revolt

70 The Roman destruction of the Jewish Temple

Between 132 and 135 AD The Bar Kokba revolt which was suppressed, Jericho and Bethlehem were destroyed, and the Jews were barred from Jerusalem. The Roman Emperor Hadrian determined to wipe out the identity of Israel-Judah-Judea. Therefore, he took the name Palastina and imposed it on all the Land of Israel. At the same time, he changed the name of Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina. Many Jewish people were killed and many sold in slavery. Some of those who survived left the devastated country (and established Jewish communities throughout the Middle East) but there was never a complete abandonment of the Land of Israel.

312 Emperor Constantine converts to Christianity and makes arrangements to elevate the status of Jerusalem making the city a Christian pilgrimage centre and relaxing some of the restrictions on the Jewish people but renewing the prohibition on the residence of Jews in Jerusalem, permitting them to mourn for its destruction once a year, on the ninth day of the Hebrew month of Av.

614 AD Palestine is conquered by the Persians.

640 AD By this time Palestine, having been recovered briefly to the Byzantine Romans, has fallen to the Muslim Arabs under Caliph Umayyad who did little to develop Palestine economically but emphasized it’s as a holy place for Muslims was emphasized b, but little was done to develop the region economically. Few Arabs came to Palestine; the Muslim rulers ruled Christians and Jews.

691 the Dome of the Rock was erected on the site of the Temple of Solomon,

750 Palestine passed to the Abbasid caliphate, and this period was marked by unrest between factions that favored the Umayyads and those who preferred the new rulers.

9th c Palestine was conquered by the Fatimid dynasty, which had risen to power in North Africa. The Fatimids had many enemies - the Seljuks, Karmatians, Byzantines, and Bedouins - and Palestine became a battlefield. Under the Fatimid caliph al Hakim (996-1021), the Christians and Jews were harshly suppressed, and many churches were destroyed.

1099, Palestine was captured by the Crusaders, establishing the LatinKingdom. Jews were seen by the Crusaders as infidels, as bad as the Muslim occupiers of Jerusalem, and were slaughtered by Christian
soldiers along their way to liberate Jerusalem and then thousands in the city when they got there.

1119 AD a Papal Bill was issued to to reinforce St. Augustine's earlier plea, in 427 AD, not to kill the Jews, but to allow them to wander the earth as evidence of their rejection by God.

1187 The Crusaders were defeated by Saladin at the battle of Hittin, and the LatinKingdom was ended, but Palestine had become a wasteland.

1260 Mongol invaders who arrived destroyed many of the villages.

1291 The Mamluks ended the Crusader period, but under Mamluk rule Palestine declined further. Mamluks burned and sacked towns and villages, uprooted orchards, and destroyed wells.

1351, the Black Death was reported in Palestine

1500 the population had declined to barely 200,000 people

1516 the Mamluks were defeated by the Ottoman Turks who for the first three centuries ruled from a distance.

1831 The discovery of sea routes to the East began to erode the importance of the Middle East to commerce. Muhammad Ali, the Egyptian viceroy nominally subject to the Ottoman sultan, occupied Palestine. Under him and his son the region was opened to European influence. Ottoman control was reasserted in 1840, but Western influence continued. The Ottoman tax system was ruinous and did much to keep the land underdeveloped and the population small.

1835 Alexander W. Kinglake crossed the Jordan using the only bridge, a survival from Roman antiquity. Among the many European settlements established, the most significant in the long run were those of Jews, Russian Jews being the first to come (1882).

Information was compiled from various sources
The Arab-Israeli Conflict-Efraim Karsh
The Arab Israeli Wars: War and Peace in the Middle East -Chaim Herzog
Politics in Palestine Arab Factionalism and Social Disintergration - Issa Khalaf
Palestinan Indentity:The Construction of Modern National Consciousness- Rashid Khalidi
Wikipedia

[monta]

Spoiler for 1917 AD - 1936 AD:

Nov 1917 British Government issues the Balfour Declaration supporting Palestine as the national home for the Jewish People

March 1920 Britain Awarded the Mandate for Palestine at the San Remo Conference

April 1920 Arab riots in Jerusalem. Five Jewish people killed and 211 injured

March 1921 British Government excludes Transjordan from the prospective Jewish national home

April 1921 Hajj Amin al- Huseini appointed Mufti of Jerusalem

May 1921 Arab riots in Palestine 90 Jewish people killed and hundreds wounded

June 1922 A British White Paper depreciates the nature of the prospective national Jewish home and limits Jewish immigration to the ‘economic absorption capacity of the country’

August 1929 Arab rioters kill 133 Jewish people and wound hundreds more

October 1930 A White Paper recommends harsh restrictions on Jewish immigration and purchase of land

April 1936 A 10 member Arab Higher Committee established as the effective leadership of the Palestinian Arabs

A general Arab uprising begins

[monta]

Spoiler for 1936 AD - 1947 AD:

October 1936 Uprising temporarily suspended at the request of Arab leaders

July 1937 A Royal commission of inquiry headed by Lord Peel, recommends the termination of the Mandate and the partition of Palestine into two states, the Arab state united with Transjordan, in some 85 percent of this territory and a Jewish state in the rest, Jerusalem, Bethlehem and a corridor leading them to the Mediterranean sea to remain a British Mandatory Zone

November 1938 Woodhead Royal commission recommends shelving the Peel Partition Plan

May 1939 A White Paper restricts Jewish immigration to no more than 15,000 per year during the next 5 year period, after that it would occur only with Arab consent. Purchase of land by Jewish people is prohibited in some areas and restricted in others.

May 1942 A Zionist conference at the Biltmore Hotel, New York, demands that ‘Palestine be established as a Jewish Commonwealth integrated in the structure of the new democratic world’

May 1946 An Anglo-American Commission of Inquiry recommends the opening of Palestine to 100,000 Jewish refuges. Recommendation was rejected by the British Foreign Secretary Ernest Bevin

June 1946 A pan-Arab summit in Syria (Bludan) adopts a series of measures to prevent the creation of a Jewish State

March 1947 Britain refers the Palestine problem to the UN

August 1947 UN Special Committee on Palestine (UNSCOP) recommends the earliest possible termination of the British Mandate. A majority report suggests the partition of Palestine into an ArabState a Jewish State an internationalised city of Jerusalem, all linked in an economic union. A minority report recommends an independent federal state.

September 1947 Pan- Arab summit in Lebanon (Sofar) Urges the Arab states to ‘open their doors to Palestinian Children, women and elderly and fend for them, should the developments in Palestine so require’

November 1947 Un General Assembly endorses UNSCOP’s majority recommendation on the partition of Palestine
Arab violence commences 8 Jewish people are killed and others wounded.

December 1947

1st A national strike is proclaimed by the AHC
2nd Jewish commercial centre in Jerusalem is destroyed by an Arab mob
4th Failed storm on the Efal Kibbutz by Arabs
8th Failed storm of Hatikva quarter by Arabs results in heavy casualties
8th -17th Arab league summit decides to contribute one million Egyptian pounds and 10,000 rifles to the Palestine war effort
12th Jewish car bomb attack near the Old city of Jerusalem, twenty Arabs killed 5 wounded
14th Jewish Supply convoy to Ben-Shemen attacked by Arabs 12 people killed
18th Eight Arabs Killed in a Jewish attack
30th Irgun bomb kills six Arab workers near the Haifa oil refinery. Arab workers in the plant kill 39 Jewish workers

[monta]

Spoiler for January to May 1948 AD:

1948
January
4th Lehi Blows up the Headquarters of the Jaffa National committee
10th Arab Liberation Army (ALA) attack on Kfar-Szold –Failed
14th Large scale Arab attack on Etzion Bloc – Failed with heavy casualties
15th -16th Platoon of 35 Jewish Fighters sent to reinforce the Etzion Bloc are wiped out
20th ALA attack on Yechiam- Failed

February
1st -15th Jewish retaliatory strikes in Haifa, Jerusalem and Sasa
16th ALA offensive against Tirat-Zvi- Failed with heavy casualties
22nd Arab car bomb explodes in Jewish Jerusalem, fifty people killed, hundreds wounded

March
2nd – 4th Arab attacks on Magdiel and Ramot- Naftali – Failed
11th Arab car bomb destroys Jewish national headquarters in Jerusalem
17th Large Arab army convoy destroyed in a battle near Haifa
19th US proposes suspension of Partition Plan and a temporary international trusteeship for Palestine
27th Jewish convoy from Nahariya to Yechiam ambushed forty 2 fighters killed
27th – 28th Jewish convoy returning from Etzion bloc to Jerusalem ambushed near Nabi Daniel. Jewish fighters are evacuated by British Army, weapons and vehicles lost to Arab forces.
31st Jewish convoy to Jerusalem ambushed 17 people killed

April
6th -15th Operation Nachshon, a Jewish offensive to open the road to Jerusalem
4th -12th ALA offensive against Mishmar-Maemek, failed with heavy losses
8th Abd al-Qader al-Husseini killed
9th Irgun and lehi forces occupy Deir Yasin, 100 people killed
10th Muslim Brothers attack Kfar-Darom- failed
13th Arabs ambush Jewish medical envoy in Jerusalem 80 doctors and nurses killed
13th -16th Druze offensive against Ramat-Yohanan – failed
15th - 21st Operation Harel, 3 large supply convoys make it to Jewish Jerusalem
18th Tiberias falls to the Hagana, Arab population evacuated
21st -22nd Haifa captured by the Hagana. Arab leaders refuse to surrender and order the evacuation of the city’s Arab population
22nd -30th Operation Jebusite, Jewish offensive to secure outlying Jerusalem neighbourhoods. Failed to occupy Nabi Samuel; seized Sheikh Jarrah but relinquished control at British demand; captured Qatamon

May
1st -12th Arab attacks on Galilee Kibbutzim failed,
Operation Yiftach, Hagana captures Arab villages and towns in eastern Galilee in anticipation of the Arab invasion
4th -15th Operation Barak, capture of Arab villages in south in preparation of the Arab invasion
8th -18th Operation Maccabee, jewish offensive to clear the road to Jerusalem, partially successful.
11th Jewish forces capture Safed
11th -12th Muslim Brothers attack on Kfar-Drom- failed
12th Jewish forces occupy Beisan
13th Jaffa surrenders to the Hagana. Arab legion occupies Etzion Bloc. Dozens of civilians and fighters killed after surrendering
14th Termination of the British Mandate over Palestine. Proclamation of the state of Israel
15th Armies of Egypt, Syria, Transjordan, Lebanon, and Iraq invade Israel.. Egyptian air force bombs Tel-Aviv. Egyptian attacks on Kfar-Darom and Nirim, failed
15th -22nd Iraqi attacks on Gesher and castle of Belvoir, failed
17th Egyptian forces enter Beersheba, move north to the outskirts of Jerusalem
16th -19th Israeli raids on military targets in Syria and Lebanon
17th -18th Israeli forces capture Acre
18th Syrian forces occupy Zemakh, Masada and Shaar-Hagolan
19th -24th Egyptian attack on Yad-Mordechai. Settlement captured after defenders withdrawn.
20th Large scale Syrian assault on Deganiya, failed with heavy casualties
UN Appoints Count Folke Bernadotte of Sweden as Mediator for Palestine
21st -25th Egyptian-Transjordan attack on Ramat-Rahel, failed
21st -27th Egyptian attack on Negba, failed
22nd Israeli forces complete occupation of Western Galilee
24th Israeli forces recapture Shaar-Hagolan and Masada
25th An Iraqi attack in the direction of Netanya, failed
25th Operation Ben-Nun A, Israeli attack on the Latrun fortress, failed with heavy casualties
28th The Israel Defence Forces (IDF) established. Jewish Quarter in the Old City of Jerusalem falls to the Arab Legion
30th Operation Ben Nun B, Second Israeli attack on Latrun, failed